/Our Lady/

newadvent.org/cathen/15464b.htm

Kek és um português.
E o nosso país foi salvo. Da segunda guerra mundial é do comunismo.
E apesar da degeneração por pagar se por toda a Europa ainda nos seguramos mais ou menos. Além disso a próxima geração ainda tem muito para contar.

Well, I know it's not idolatry. We just understand that Mary and the Saints to be great examples of the faith and we dedicate dulia to them.
Can you please elaborate?
I don't understand also. I can see parallels with the Arc of the Covenant and I can extrapolate her importance from what is said about the birth of Our Lord Jesus Christ. But that's about all I understand, the Scriptures have her as a bit of a background character for the most part so I wish to understand more. Where does the devotion for Mary comes from and what were the positions of the Church Fathers?
Can you explain?
But how do we know they are not demonic, user?
If she had no sin, and God being Just and being Good, it stands to reason that she was immortal. She had to be the perfect vessel to bear Our Lord.

We agree with you in venerating the Theotokos.

Because the church investigates them sometimes even for more than 20 years.
First they check if it has nothing contrary to the faith (Fátima checks out), the personality and humbleness and modesty of the witnesses (Fátima checks out, Jacinta's sacrifices almost made me cry.), then they follow what our Blessed Lord taught us, to see if the fruits are good and if they are the Church approves the miracle.
No Catholic is forced to believe though but its a more than reasonable to believe.

E é aí que se esgota a promessa?

My priest told me exactly that.

There is One Church, the universal church. But, narrow is the path. As in, there may be multiple way to express the Faith of Christ but there is One Pathway that is absolute, and that pathway goes through straight through Catholic Faith.
Christ even had one of his Apostles look over her specifically. If this isn't a clear sign to her devotion I don't know what is.
She was always there, always, even when the apostles were not. She was the biggest devotee of them all.
Faith, really is the only way here.
Jesus Him self loved her more than all the others.

My soul doth magnify the Lord.
And my spirit hath rejoiced in God my Saviour.
For he hath regarded : the lowliness of his handmaiden: For behold, from henceforth : all generations shall call me blessed.
For he that is mighty hath magnified me: and holy is his Name.
And his mercy is on them that fear him: throughout all generations.
He hath shewed strength with his arm: he hath scattered the proud in the imagination of their hearts.
He hath put down the mighty from their seat: and hath exalted the humble and meek.
He hath filled the hungry with good things: and the rich he hath sent empty away.
He remembering his mercy hath holpen his servant Israel :
As he promised to our forefathers, Abraham and his seed for ever.
Glory be to the Father, and to the Son: and to the Holy Ghost;
As it was in the beginning, is now, and ever shall be : world without end. Amen.

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Essa era a promessa.
Mas além disso o nosso país não está perdido de longe.
Mas aquilo que vemos no mundo atual é predito por Fátima.
Ela pediu a consagração do Sagrado coração de Maria a Rússia por todos os bispos do mundo nos anos 40, e se tal não fosse feito a Rússia ia espalhar os seus erros pelo mundo (comunismo e toda a paneleirice que vemos hoje). A Igreja não o fez, e tal como ela disse a Lúcia depois vão se arrepender como o rei de França (aquele que lhe cortaram a cabeça, vê a história de santa Margarida.). Só o João Paulo faz a consagração na década de 80.
Lucia diz que Deus aceitou mas já foi demasiado tarde. Ainda assim salvamos a Rússia, mas os seus erros já se tinham propagado como um polvo pelo mundo.

Prots don't necessarily disrespect Mary afaik. But they're autistic literalists, who think when Jesus said to the Apostle John "Behold your mother!" that he only meant John alone.

Eu agora vou dormir que tenho de acordar cedo.
Mas se tiveres mais dúvidas posta e eu responderei tanto quanto sei amanhã.

Lol

Disingenuous. I have never disrespected the mother of our Lord, I simply pray to our Loed directly. I do not insult His mother.

But can't that explained away as Our Lord wanting to simply have someone look out for her Blessed Mother?

Eu agradeço a tua disposição.
Bem, isso custa muito a acreditar. Rezo para que seja verdade, mas não é isso que eu vejo.
Isso traz-me algum consolo. Portanto a Consagração foi aceite? Mesmo por um Papa que cometeu a abominação de Assisi?

If you want to not embrass the depth of Christ and his actions, sure. You can take the shallow approach. Honestly nothing wrong with it, but if you do that you leave the fullness of what the Faith can mean to your life.

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catholodorks BTFO
XD

arguing against heretics is tiresome, we can only the Lord to rebuke you

Fátima é obviamente uma invenção política e o seu orgulho o deixou cego.

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No one claims this.
We don't worship her

Than don't send your prayers to her. They should only be sent to God
Than quit making idols of her and insisting people send her prayers.

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I've never crafted an idol.
Do you know about iconography?
Those in Heaven are still living members of the body of Christ. She is as a fellow sister on earth.

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What? Do you think the mother of Jesus wouldn't be in Heaven?

Yep foi aceite. As consagracoes e resto dos ritos não dependem do estado de alma do sacerdote. O mesmo se passa com a Eucaristia. É válida mesmo que o padre seja um pedófilo.
Maria em São Lucas diz que lhe chamarão abençoada todas as gerações.

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Excuse me you what?

Exodus 35:30-35
Then Moses said to the people of Israel, “See, the Lord has called by name Bezalel the son of Uri, son of Hur, of the tribe of Judah;
and he has filled him with the Spirit of God, with skill, with intelligence, with knowledge, and with all craftsmanship,
to devise artistic designs, to work in gold and silver and bronze
in cutting stones for setting, and in carving wood, for work in every skilled craft.
And he has inspired him to teach, both him and Oholiab the son of Ahisamach of the tribe of Dan.
He has filled them with skill to do every sort of work done by an engraver or by a designer or by an embroiderer in blue and purple and scarlet yarns and fine twined linen, or by a weaver—by any sort of workman or skilled designer.

She had no sin, why would she be on heaven? For God's sake even if you don't believe in the dogmas of the immaculate conception and the assumption of Mary (may Christ have mercy upon your soul) she was literally the mother of God she was the most saintly person that ever lived so God could choose her from all the women.
My God what kind of cult is yours? All the normal prots, although they don't venerate her, regard her as the mother of God, not the mother of some kid.
A kid? That kid is literally God. And how can you put poop and God in the same sentence? Smash your head against a wall and apologise before it's too late.
You are directly baspheming Christ.

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Moses met God the Father on Sinai, but was far from perfect. Why did the mother of Christ need to be different? God chose sinners all the time in the Old Testament.

Biblepilled

To save us from sin. Mary and jesus and the new Adam and Eve. None of them could be born with the old sin, although that would be impossible for Jesus since he's God.

Did the salvation come from Moses? No it didn't. The salvation came from Jesus not from the Law.
To conceive God in her womb of course she had to be pure.
If the woman who was predicted to smash the serpent's head was under dominion of the same snake how could she smash her master?

You're allowing platonism to supercede the Bible
"All have sinned and fall short of the of God". Mary is not given an exception.

O Bom Livro adverte-nos contra prestar falso testemunho. Porque chamas milhares de pessoas que testemunharam um milagre de mentirosos?

My understanding is that Moses had to be imperfect since he was not the Redeemer. If you assume that the Arc of the Covenant is prophetising Mary, then it all becomes clear, from Mary came the bread that saved the world and she was obedient to the Law and had no since. This is Sola Scriptura, this is what the Bible tells us about Mary, that her sanctity was a necessary step to bare Our Lord. Needless to say that this is not idolatrous, it is simply a devotion to all the good examples in Christianity, Mary being the highest since she was free from sin, original or personal, and was the worthy vessel. Honestly, I can't understand why people disregard Mary as just some desert gal when the biblical parallels all attest to her greatness.

Also, my understanding of the apparitions of Our Lady is that she never denies the gospels, she never rewrites them, she never brings forth new understanding of them. She's only problematic in the sense that she affirms the Catholic dogma and particular the need of the Eucharist and obedience to the priesthood. This is the only reason why Protestants deny her, I really can't see any other motive other than it declaring their faith incomplete.

Then the Son of God was born of a women who was under the domain of Satan. What kind of logic is that? How could she be full of grace then?
And besides Mary was preserved of Sin. At the moment of her making in her mothers womb, God preserved her from the sin of Adam.

porque é um protestante brasileiro
Of course not. In fact there can not be extra revelations. It's a dogma of the church that all revelation stopped with the death of the last Apostle.
Its actually a criteria to rule out apparitions if someone claims the heavens gave him a new revelation

Jesus was equally man, this is not a problem in scripture
Do you see the contradiction with "all have sinned" and "Mary had no sin"?
Is this an error in scripture to you?

Not what I'm alleging at all, reformed theology is the ultimate christian manifestation of platonism

I do see a contradiction and in all truthfulness I don't know how to resolve this. But conversely I see that Our Lady's apparitions are always benign affirmations of Faith on Jesus Christ and the rest of the Holy Trinity.

Is it possible that the apparitions are falsified?
You should read into cessationism

Falsified by whom? And for what purpose? If she was dispensing bad theology I would agree but that is definitely not the case. As it stands, there are too many witnesses to these miracles, they simply can not be denied. Why would demons heal the sick and affirm the Scriptures?

So if Mary is without sin, what about her parents, how could the Mother of God be born from sinners?

The Orthodox Church's (my Church) position on the Virgin is that she is to be highly revered above all Saints. We refer to her as the God-bearer (Theotokos), Queen of Heaven (Rev. 12), The Ark of the New Covenant, and the Blessed Ever-Virgin. Her prayers to Christ are heard first, and Her intercession is held in the highest regard in our Church.

They would be good people but not necessarily sinless. The point is not having Mary being from a saintly bloodline (although that is more or less true) but that there is a degree of separation between Our Lord Christ and humanity.

For adding credibility to a false system
You said it yourself that you're willing to look past a contradiction with scripture because of the testimony of apparition witnesses

When Mormons do that, it's not acceptable, is it?

The Bible nowhere speaks of her sinlessness, and it does not seem necessary to me. Maria deserve for honor and respect, but why make her the queen of the heavens?

I didn't say that I'm willing to look past the Scriptures, I just don't have an answer for contradiction. And right now I do acknowledge it as a contradiction, I wholeheartedly see your point.
It is not the same thing. Mary affirms the Scriptures, Joseph Smith added to the Scriptures. At the very least understand this is the case.

St. Paul is talking to Jewish Christians. He isn't talling in an absolute way.
He says the jews are like the gentiles because they, the Jews and Saint Paul included sinned too.

Also even Martin Luther upholds this doctrine of you are a protestant.

That's a consistent reading, but I disagree hermeneutically

Is that taught somewhere in a Catholic source? "Have sinned" in romans 3 is indicative grammar wise

my problem is why the winnie the pooh Mary is the greatest saint. ok she is Mather of God but why angel comes to she and not God himself like befor, to Moses or Enoch?

i grow up in """"""protestant""""" church but i don't identify with them

This is a very good point.

I believe there is evidence God shown himself through his angels to Moses and Enoch. I don't remember the source tho

I think that Maria or the queen of the heavens is one problem and the idolaters are the second, even the muslims do not have paintings and sculptures, the word is supposed to convey the content not the visible things

Well no one understood Romans that way until the protestant reformation.
That must be in some apologetic manuals and biblical comments.

You've said yourself. She is the mother of God. An angel came to her but in her womb was God himself. The greatest honor one can have. Even the angel gave her a salutation. Honor thy father and thy mother, and that's what Jesus does.

I think that the Septuagint says Angel of the Lord, but that sometimes could mean God Himself.
That's why Islam is a religion of retards. Why would we Christians imitate them?
Early Christians already had paintings of the martyrs and saints why the winnie the pooh should Christianity be influenced by moorish shit?

show me

sites.google.com/site/aquinasstudybible/home
You can try looking here. It has all the comments of the fathers on the bible as far as I know. I can't find a comment on on Romans 3:23.

how can you tell me that my reading of Romans 3:23 is opposed to the fathers when you're not aware of a single father who talked about it?

Because you are implying that that passage destroys the dogma of the immaculate conception.
Which isn't true because every father, (except St. Chrystostom, Origen and St. Basil in a single sentence though they imply that Mary had doubts for example) , say that the Virgin Mary was untouched by sin. Tradition would be in this case contradicting Scripture which isn't possible and with all the heretics living then I am surprised that no one pick that up, we'll maybe because they knew the context of Romans and why was it written. It was Luther who started the meme of using Romans to attack catholics namely on Justification, where he fails miserably because Paul mentions the works of the law only. But even Luther admitted that Mary was immaculate.

I'm giving Catholic theologians the benefit of the doubt and assuming that they were aware of the book of Romans, or Isaiah 53 "All we like sheep have gone astray", and that their doctrine of the immaculate conception has some explanation.

As crudely as we've presented it here: "Mary had no sin", there is an immediate contradiction with God's inerrant word

Either way, you're backpedaling because you grossly overstated yourself. Don't make claims unless you're prepared to support them. I'm looking for any church fathers who said "all have sinned" meant anything besides every non-divine person

The ever beautiful, loving above all beings except God, and worthy of veneration, Mother of God. Daily reminder to read something about our Lady daily, as St. Alphonsus says

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I don't think you understood the Catholic position. Mary was preserved from sin by God. She had to be saved as well like all of us, wasn't she destined to be the mother of the savior she would a sinner like you and me. She was preserved from sin by God her savior.

As for Isaiah it can be easily disregarded because the Lord came to save us. The children of Adam. The lost sheep. Mary was never lost because ekf what I said above.
As for Roman 3:23 is a verse taken out of context. Protestants always seem to forget to whom was the Epistle written that's why wrong conclusions are always taken from it. Works of the law mean that catholics are wrong about justification, but ignore the Epistle was for the Jews and that their law wasn't needed no more. Some of the protestant points are verses taken from romans and other epistles with no context whatsoever always universalising what they say.
Of course multiple interpretations can be made from the bible, even Satan did that against Jesus, but if it doesn't agree with the faith then its a wrong interpretation. Also it would be against genesis 3.
How come? I said the father never read Romans that way because they knew what the context of the Epistle was.
It was all protestant novelty that ctrl f some buzzwords and mental gymnastic around it.
I can also make interesting points supporting certain heresies like picking up Mark 13:32 claiming that Christ was ignorant, which He is not and until Arius or wtv first heretic picked it up there was no father who read it in that light. Like Augustine says the attacks of the heretics provide us with a chance to learn more.
That's why I said long ago in this thread that no Father ever though of reading Romans in that light, something that even the reformers didn't do, only later protestants.

What have I said that misrepresents the Catholic position?

Let's recap:

"4 You shall not make for yourself an image in the form of anything in heaven above or on the earth beneath or in the waters below. 5 You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I, the Lord your God, am a jealous God, punishing the children for the sin of the parents to the third and fourth generation of those who hate me, 6 but showing love to a thousand generations of those who love me and keep my commandments.''
Exodus 20:4-6

Is Enoch never sined? you know God took him to heaven also dogma of the ascension of Maria was passed in 1950, why not before?

>

If Elijah and Enoch who were sinners were taken up by God why not the Mother of God?

Dogmas are only stated when needed to.
There was a needed to do this because influenced by the modern world some people were deviating from doctrine in this regard. With the papal anathema whomever says the opposite is excommunicated.

so to go to heaven in flesh you can be sinner but Mary has to be sinless to born Jesus?

sounds like bullshit to me. first christians had a big problem about trinity or divine of Jesus, why they have not witch divine Mery? becous she was only a woman, blessed and great, mather of God but still

I'm Episcopalian/Anglican and literally don't understand why other prots say Mariology is bad.

What? It was taken as granted. Lol
Yeah the Trinity wasn't defined as clearly as in Nicea but everyone believe in that.
Even roman historians write that the stupid and supersticious Christians worshipped Christ as their God.

Besides the Gospel of John was the last nail in the coffin for some heretics who claimed Jesus want God in the end of the 1st century.
There were more heretics who believe Jesus didn't come in mortal flesh then denying his divinity.

The Bible itself has God telling the Israelis to build an ark and to make two golden angels. Was this idolatrous? Of course not. To fashion an idol is to make something that is the target of worship and not simply an adornment, a remembrance or something that exalts the good examples of the faith. I think that you're overreaching there, friend.

Right now the dogma states that three people never sin:the Lord Our God Jesus Christ of course, Mary the Blessed Mother which was the blessed vessel and for some reason John the Baptist (which Our Lord said was the greatest among all men). I don't know if there were any other sinless people but the Catholic Church only states the dogma about certain people. There have been saintly people that have walked this world that have not been elevated by the Catholic Church or any other church, there is not one single church that claims to know all the mysteries of the faith and the Catholic Church is not an exception.

About John the Baptists, unlike Our Lady which our Lord preserved her from sin from the moment of her conception, St. John the Baptist was saved from sin when Mary visited Elizabeth and the baby John got all happy to receive the visit of his cousin as far as I know.

i will never understand your myth(e)ology, bro
but i still love you

What are you even talking about? I have never heard this before

Yeah, I was stunned when I learned about it too. It makes sense because it affirms the sacrament of baptism but it's one of those weird things about the Catholic dogma.

it understandable that you might think Protestants 'irreverent'

that's because you practice forms of veneration to saints that they think to be akin to worship, and Mary the mother of Jesus is held in the highest esteem; receiving the most of this praise

the problem is, protestants don't think anyone – anyone – should be venerated in any way, other than God; with all praise and recognition of grace only being addressed to Him

now reading the prayers said to Mary, we can easily see her being given such titles as Queen of Heaven, Gate of Heaven, Comfort of the Afflicted or Refuge of Sinners

protestants think that the Scripture points to God having sole right to such titles, and thus they cannot possibly ascribe them to that very blessed lady

but this returns us to the question of why you think prots are irreverent of Mary, and i think it's more than understandable if you have been raised to see Mary as befitting such names; to then think anyone who doesn't similarly revere her as blasphemous

So Catholics believe that because Jesus was conceived without sin, Mary must have never sinned?

You've read OP much more charitably than I have, so kudos and thank you for setting an example.

I am a little miffed at OP though.
I wonder if OP has ever been exposed to protestants actually saying irreverent things about Mary rather than simply not praying to her and not owning figures of her, etc. Maybe protestants in Portugal are disrespectful to her, I don't know. I have been exposed to protestants all my life and never heard any disrespect towards her. I hate when people decide to use language like this to start a topic because it only gets people riled up and distracts from the discussion.

OP finds protestants' 'irreverence' so 'dumbfounding'.

The sheer condescension. I'd almost rather see posts like the one coming straight out and accusing protestants of 'shitting all over [Christ's] mother' because it's so much easier to just ignore and keep from muddying the waters. If you're trying to understand another's viewpoint, you can come in a little more good faith than that. Maybe I'm just reeeing right now though.

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The love for Marry has historical and real life roots, it is not something that we disccused among ourselves at some time in the past and decided we'll do from now on. Marry traveled with the apostles, helped them to spread the message, cared for them and was like a mother to all of them and they loved them as their mother too. Being the literal mother of God, having the humanly pain of a mother seeing her son getting tortured and killed, loving and caring about her son's disciples and standing with them at their trials, you can understand why the first Christians loved her so much. This love passed upon to the next generations of Christians until this day.
Protestants, by having no roots to Christianity, are trying to explain this love with their wordly eyes. They read their bad translated Bibles and they say "oh but Christ never said anything about that", but it's something you cannot undestand unless you're an actual Christian, having listen to the message of Christ directly by the apostles. For a protestant, a tranny priest or a power rangers mass is perfectly ok (the Bible doesn't say anything exclusivelly about those anyway), but having love and respect for the Mother of God is somwhow "heretical".

"and they are in the dark in their reasoning. They are disconnected from God’s life because of their ignorance and their closed hearts"

you're too kind, at best i have simply remembered that for many folks on Zig Forums this is the first time they've interacted openly with other denominations, and since the imageboards aren't exactly the healthiest of environments due to the acerbic tone in our dialogues, and the nature of our users tending toward the irascible and obtuse; they aren't encountering the best the other side has to offer

add to that the bad actors pretending to represent certain streams of thought so as to demean them, and the immature adherents of some schools indulging in that same invective because it pleases their flesh, this is one of the worst places to encounter a worldview that doesn't conform to one's own – so at risk of seeming condescending, i try be one gentle specimen when engaging with our friends across the Tiber

but here, you see that anger you feel at being so misrepresented by the OP? we gotta remember that for most of his life he's been raised to see Mary as the cause of his salvation (causa salutis) and the one to whom he should pledge his life in devotion and in defence of, so you know something of the anger he feels when the one he loves is so demeaned by the protestant refusal to adore her; because that in itself is a diminishment of her virtues and a misrepresentation – or 'blasphemos' – of the one he puts his trust in

anything – any thing – that detracts from her glory seems to him an abomination, the lowest of acts, and a debasement of that which is 'Most Holy'; so to even question the claims of the Roman Catholic Church as to her virtues and her abilities is a profanity, and an attack on the very foundation of the faith in which he trusts for his eternal soul

that's an immense deed, and a dangerous one which only a fool would rush to; because not only is one challenging the very core of a man's being, but they are in danger of wrongfully wounding one whom the Lord has declared 'sacred' for that he carries the Imago Dei – and knowing that God will judge every idle word – should one place a barrier between him and Christ is to have blood on their hands, and an eternal responsibility

so while it may pain us to think that the hyperdulia paid Mary is a diminishment of the Lord Jesus, it would serve us well to remember that Christ has taken far worse affronts from our own lips, and forgiven them; and if protestantism is part of the Church that Christ is building, then we prods should have no concern if we are so slandered as Christ was - gloriously sharing in His sufferings - because of greater concern are the souls of our Romanist friends, and those amongst them that Christ died for

~

i've referenced only a few of Mary's titles as proclaimed by the Roman Catholic Church, more of which can be found here in this by no means exhaustive wikipedia article or in the prayers addressed to her – and while it may pain those who cannot ascribe such value to her life, i link them here so as to show the extreme reverence in which she is held by RC folks, and why one needs be gentle when approaching this subject, since it touches their very hearts
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Titles_of_Mary

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