Salvation

I left all my former pagan associations behind some months ago and have just been attending every theology group I can find and talking to every Christian I come across and I also read the entire KJV and many related books including The Pilgrim's Progress, Basic Theology by Charles C. Ryrie, various sermons by Charles Spurgeon, George Mueller, Stephen Charnock, and others.

In this time I have found the following:
1. The Omnisentience or Love of God. This loving aspect of God is particularly revealed in the Bible and in Christianity in a way it is not in other religions.
2. The Grace of God. That by his grace, we unworthy sinners, might be saved.

This changed my concept of God from a blind and uncaring God (a demiurge) to one that I might actually develop a person and involved relationship with and receive his blessings.

Now it has been strongly emphasized to me many times over that "not by works shall you be saved but by faith". I have hardly come across any Christians suggesting that good works might save me and besides that I find it hard to believe that we could be justified before God in doing good works when he knows what our nature and our intentions are. Good works must flow out of a good nature, we must be made righteous, and then we will be guided by the holy spirit the rest of our life.

I am struggling however very hard with the concept of salvation still. I am trying to understand what is to be saved and how my faith is to be formulated. I do not want to have the wrong kind of faith but the genuine saving faith which is pleasing to God. Regarding what is to be saved I have been told various things such as "the spirit", "the soul", and "the whole man (all 3 parts of the trinity)". My own opinion was that the spirit is perfect, the body doesn't need saving, and the soul of man is what is to be saved. However I have seen it preached that the whole man will be saved, that all 3 parts will be in some way renewed or redeemed. I am still seeking clarity concerning the divisions between soul and spirit and I have some idea of it but I plan to study The Existence and Attributes of God by Stephen Charnock and the writings of Jonathon Edwards that I might find further clarity. To the spirit I assign the will, the self, awareness, divinity, eternity, etc. and I also use "divine spark" as synonymous with spirit. To the soul I assign the mind of a man, memories, personality, the astral body, etc. I find also that in every trinity there are two polarities and then one unifying principle, so I must see the spirit as unifying principle between body and mind (soul), in the same way "heat" or "temperature" is the principle that unifies hot and cold (opposite polarities).

Concerning salvation also it is said in the Bible I think that I will receive "eternal Life". Now I know myself to be an eternal being one way or another, either destined for an eternity in hell, or an eternity in heaven… at least according to the concept of many Christians. While I am not yet convinced that one can be kept in either of these two "places" forever, it is somewhat irrelevant. What I really want to understand is what is meant by Life.

I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life

I want to understand the fullness of what that life means. I have long been thinking about what is life, not in a biological sense where you merely point at living things and say that is life, but as that principle of vitality which sets apart a dead thing from a living thing, and which when present in abundance seems to bring the organism into its full potential of expression, and which heals sickness. Last night after much thinking about it I have arrived at "the will to power", that maybe vitality is brought about by expelling all impulses contrary to ones full expression of life, that one must feel an intense desire in every part of their being for life-expression. Maybe that is it. If anyone has a better way to explain life-activity do tell.

So maybe to put my faith in the Christ I must let go all entropy, of all things which stagnate and weigh down my soul, and enter into the fullness of life thereby. I must be as one whose heart yearns for life and more life and makes no room for the contrary.

If you are a Christian who is saved please tell me user how it is that you know you are saved and how I might also be saved. It is at present a tremendously complicated matter for me.

Other urls found in this thread:

youtube.com/user/orthodoxstephen
youtube.com/user/tednottingham
youtube.com/user/NicodemosHagiorite
youtube.com/user/otElders
biblehub.com/genesis/6-5.htm
biblehub.com/genesis/8-21.htm
biblehub.com/john/5-25.htm
biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
biblehub.com/colossians/2-13.htm
sacred-texts.com/chr/herm/hermes7.htm
twitter.com/NSFWRedditVideo

first things first, faith is simply an old word for trust; and if one is trusting themselves to Christ, placing their trust in His work on the cross, they have a saving trust, and a correct one; for there is no other trust that is acceptable to God; Jesus being The Way in that Way, Truth, and Life

second question about the soul and spirit is interesting, but i'm not sure why you're hung up on it since they're often used synonymously, though there are some distinctions you could study by starting with Christ speaking to the greatest commandment to love God with all one's heart, soul, mind and strength – but i would suggest that of more import is another area where Scripture says that man is spiritually dead until God regenerates/resurrects that spirit and enables him to put trust in Christ; God the Holy Spirit joining with man's spirit so that the believer becomes one with God just as the Father, Son and Spirit are One

lastly, i may be missing something here bro; but i really can't quite grasp why you don't understand what Life means

God is the sole subsistent Being, the only One who is Alive by His own volition, thus He IS Life… and so by extension, anyone joined to Him is made alive, and then empowered to do the deeds of Life which were preordained for him from before the beginning

this would have nothing to do with you eschewing entropy and death by your own volition, but rather God empowering you to turn (repent) from the idolatrous self-worshipping, self-determination that is the desire of the natural spiritually dead man, and instead place your belief in the work of Christ

and while that seems to have gone full circle as the hippies say, that's kinda where it's at; if you repent and believe in Christ who is Life, you have the saving Faith required to please God, and since none of this was a work of your own hand, all glory goes to Him


~


sorry if i didn't cover all your questions, i enjoyed your exploration of this, but i kinda thought to just focus my attention on clearing away some of the clutter :3

I'm not qualified enough to answer this, so I'll just bump it and give some channels for you to check out:
youtube.com/user/orthodoxstephen
youtube.com/user/tednottingham
youtube.com/user/NicodemosHagiorite
youtube.com/user/otElders

I see what you’re trying to do there but you should have some in your life so you can try to point them to Christ. Show them how you’re supposed to act, if you will

I honestly have no problem with exploring, confronting, and associating with anything and everything but at the time I am just intensely focused on Christianity. For awhile I was in a period of "everything is redundant, I just keep coming across the same ideas restated again and again", but after diving into Christianity I'm actually learning about new things and making progress in my understanding again. I will return to them with what new truths I have learned but for now I got to avoid pagans. Besides that I must admit that I have been pressured into a kind of thought-bubble where I'm not allowed to talk to anyone and where I've even been told I'm only allowed to read the Bible but I had them tell me which passage they were basing that on, disputed about it, and they eventually admitted I could read books based on the Bible as well. Some of my new Christian friends just really want me to isolate myself from anything else.

Is there a passage in the Bible saying something like god being an ocean of life? An infinite abundance to draw upon?

Also the part where you speak about being spiritually dead. I just interpret that as man's will vs the will of the all-knowing, all-powerful, perfect god. Aka we must be humble enough to submit ourselves to his will rather than our own so we might not error anymore.

I am really impressed with your thought process. The books you've read are good choices, and your articulations of the concepts are coherent. Most people who come here with a wall of text just assert useless maxims and platitudes

The main question:
If you read the NT you should have come across it multiple times.

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If I am deeply interested in Christianity right now, and I am looking to the Bible for its Truth, and I recognize in the person of Christ the concept of a Perfect Man whom I would wish to know and accept as my savior and guide (being that by his very definition he is a man without sin, perfect in his ways, and so an absolutely trustworthy savior), am I yet saved?

My current plan is the following:

1. Imprint a KJV into my soul so I have a copy there to study and refer to whenever needed, so that I might be armed with The Word of God to help me solve problems of life and penetrate into the secrets of the Mysteries.
2. Develop a personal relationship with Christ (AND NOT BE DECEIVED BY FALSE GNOSIS / FALSE LIGHT).

A lot of the the time it's taking me, a lot of the caution and clarity of thought, is all so I don't end up deceived.

I also feel I have had a relation with God and the Holy Spirit for a long time but I'm thinking of staring into the light of mind (astral light) and seeing if an angel (messenger of God) might manifest to me as to give me further instruction in a personal way that I might have a deeper relation to God. As it is right now I feel that God speaks to me through circumstances, events, people, dreams, visions, etc. and his Word reaches me through any medium in fact (but it must be recognized intuitively and I must have an open heart to receive). I just consider that there is a possibility to take things so much further that I might know God all the better.

I feel that my spirit (the will) is pointed in the direction of Christ (god, the All). Could it be that this pointedness is evidence for my salvation? Maybe not as I imagine I could waiver. However the Bible speaks of saved Christians waivering and doubting does it not, and a battle between the old man and the new man (his human/animal nature vs the holy spirit)?

Also very important; once saved, always saved, correct? So at some point, somehow, I am saved. I don't know if that comes at the moment of death and I have been told no, that you can be saved far before that, but I am not sure and have to see if the scripture supports that. I wish I could identify that exact moment where I am well and truly saved.

you mean like James 1:17 "Every good thing given and every perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights, with whom there is no variation or shifting shadow."?

there's quite a few similar statements, but i'm not placing the 'ocean of life' bit


as to your interpretation of spiritual deadness being an allusion to man's will vs the will of our omniscient, omnipresent God; that's not really what a plain reading of the texts is gonna give you, since from The Fall man has been dead in trespasses and sin - and while that does include man's wiflull opposition to He Who IS Life; thus rendering him dead and 'in love with death' (Prov 8:36); it speaks more to man being without volition, literally incapable of choosing Life unless God empowers Him to do so through resurrection, turning a heart of stone to one of flesh
biblehub.com/genesis/6-5.htm (pre-flood)
biblehub.com/genesis/8-21.htm (post-flood)
biblehub.com/john/5-25.htm
biblehub.com/ephesians/2-1.htm
biblehub.com/colossians/2-13.htm

Whew, be careful not to burn out on all that or stumble over your own logic!

I, like you, come from a Pagan past and for me, I know that God wouldn’t have wasted all his time chasing me and being patient with me for that many years for it to go to waste. Given your devotion, I would assume the same for you.

Plus - God cannot lie!

No. I think it literally said ocean in it or something like it.

Kind of off-topic, but I would like to know what it was that turned you away from paganism. And also what specific kind of paganism you were associated with.

And you're proud of this?
Remember, if there is no love in you all your works are for nothing.
Seems to me you're in this for entirely selfish reasons.
First of all you are not becoming a christian to be "saved"
You do it because you love God and Jesus.
If you don't have that, your faith is like a currency you're trying to throw into a vending machine and expecting salvation to pop out of it.
Not how it works.

Also, if you love God, if you reaaallly love Him, you don't expect anything from Him. You accept whatever he has in store for you.

Becoming a christian in order to be saved is completely egocentric. Cutting off your friends because they might "look bad" at the final judgement is incredibly selfish and loveless.

Get some inner character development going, you are not being a good person right now, and yes, it matters.

If your primary concern is in learning the genuine saving faith, then I highly recommend that you go back and read the writings of the earliest christian writers in order to make sure that your theology is in line with theirs. Scripture is, indeed, essential, and a perfect place to start, yet even in earliest centuries you had various heresies such as pelegianism, the idea that one could be worthy of salvation of their own works/merit, nestorianism, the notion that Christ was two distinct persons, God and man, and not one, and arianism, the heresy that Jesus was merely a divine messenger that nearly dominated the true faith in the 4th century and has seen resurgence in modern times in parts of the pentecostal movement. All of these heresies sprung up from people who trusted their personal interpretation rather than holding fast to the traditions they recieved, as Paul says in 2 Thessolonians 2:15. Therefore, I recommend that you begin with the Didache, a 1st century guide to the christian faith, and then move on to the epistles of Irenaeous, Justin Martyr, and Polycarp, all of whom lived in the second century and the last of whom is traditionally believed to have been a direct disciple of John. These episles should give you a clear idea of what the earliest christians believed in regards to topics that are not universally agreed upon in modern christendom, such as the necessity of charity and the strict avoidance/repentance of sin and the authority of the church. I pray you discern well friend!

Becoming a christian in order to be saved is completely egocentric

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Life is communion with God, Who is Love. Or rather, "life" is the uncreated grace of God that gives us existence and purpose. God created us so that He may share His Trinitarian love with us, and this is "life".
Maybe it would be good to first look at what "death" is. "Death" is separation from God. "Death" does not have an existence in itself but it is a symptom of the disease we have contracted when Adam used his free will to disobey God. "Death" is an unnatural state, according to which the body decays, ceases to function, and rots, while the soul is imprisoned in Hell, weakened and bound by its own sins. Communion with God is severed (but not completely - otherwise we would cease to exist), and so we do not have "life" anymore.

With that said, let me cite the Creed:

And what my catechism says about what "salvation" is, since that is your thread title:

St. Isaac the Syrian said:
Maybe you're thinking of that?
There are also many verses in the Bible where the Holy Spirit is called the water of life, and as such it is also called a river of life flowing from God.

Yes it is.

Hm. Here is some more content from my catechisms (warning, this will be long):

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It is said in Romans 10:9-10

Alright, from my other catechism. Hopefully this is helpful for you, OP. But again this isn't from a Protestant perspective and I assume you are Protestant.

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I don't even call myself a Christian nor is my intention to become a Christian (don't it may end up happening), rather, I study everything and seek the truth. Christianity as it turns out is a boatload of truth so far. You seem to be implying that egocentrism is somehow bad btw.

Nothing turned me away from Paganism. I just realized at some point that Christianity is all the good stuff from Paganism (e.g. Neoplatonism) plus some more good stuff and that I ought to respect that and to study Christianity more.

If I wanted to try to separate paganism from Christianity, it's really hard to do, as both are tangled together so much. This is not being fair to paganism at all but an oversimplification would be something like this: ignorance separates the pagan from the Christian.

99% of Christianity is all composed of ideas & concepts found in other religions/philosophies. It just adds grace and salvation and for me showed so much of the love of god that I didn't see before.

Even stuff like the trinity goes back to Pythagoras.

Basically what ended up happening to me is I came to the realization, through careful study, that Christianity is "the occidental tradition" in a sense. The monks had preserved the pagan world for me, they knew all about the past knowledge, and they also knew and understood the importance of Christ and his message to the world.

There isn't a major divide between the religions in terms of content. It is very narrow, very specific things that define them and make them irreconcilable. The rest is a lot of ideas shared in common.

Not sure what you mean by this. I was mostly driven away by a few of them trying to kill me. I plan on coming back later (to the more sane ones) after maybe those certain troublesome individuals are dead or in prison or have found a new obsession and therefore can't bother me. If this all confuses you here's a hint: ONA


Don't see the relevance.


My only reason for being in this is that Christianity deeply interests me. I don't care about community, people, acceptance of man, getting a woman, career, or any other stuff that might motivate people to get into Christianity. I am the kind of person who is driven by knowledge and by visions/divine guidance leading me places in life. Those are the reasons I do what I do. You seem to be implying btw that "selfishness" is somehow bad, in which case I'd recommend you to read Ayn Rand The Virtue of Selfishness.


I don't call myself a Christian and I have no idea really if I am "becoming a Christian" or not. All I can say is I've read the KJV, talked with a lot of Christians, looked into many Christian books, and greatly appreciate the new insights and the deeper understanding and love for God that have come out of this.

I actually only have really bothered so much about this salvation thing because some of my new Christian friends are very obsessed about it and they very badly wanted me to be saved so I am trying to understand properly what they even mean by it.


ProTip for you user: I don't even understand salvation or the necessity of it. As far as I'm concerned I don't need to be saved. However, this is a very important concept in Christianity, and something the Christians I speak with care very much about it and strongly emphasize the importance of to me, and so I want to clear up what this whole salvation thing is about and proceed in the proper manner about it.

I told one Christian that god is perfectly just and that if he throws me in the lake of fire I am completely fine with that because by the very definition of God he knows best and is perfectly just. He said I should be scared. I don't feel any fear at all about it though for I know god and trust and love god.

I'm not trying to be saved. I am trying to understand salvation. From what I've heard so far it appears that salvation comes about from faith not by works. Various details of this faith however are severely confusing to me.


I know of God's justice even before reading the KJV and accept it. Not sure that love has to come into play. God's love seems to me like another matter.

I would say concerning the love of God that it is not based on my accepting him so much as it is by my knowing him. It is an inevitable consequence of my knowing him that I love and accept him. Maybe, theoretically, someone else could know him (e.g. Satan the Angel surely did) and then he of some choice of his own rebelled. However for me knowing and understanding what God is (as by definition) is all it takes. You see the problem with so many people is this: ignorance of God. In the Bible there is a part that something like "I never knew you". In The Corpus Hermeticum there is this: sacred-texts.com/chr/herm/hermes7.htm (it is very short you can read it in less than a minute).


Listen user. I am not "becoming a Christian" at all. I am studying what is purported to be the word of God and recognizing for myself its beauty, its glory, and its wisdom. I have not sought to be a Christian. It is simply a process that appears to be happening quite naturally by being confronted with the truth or as Jesus puts it: "I Am the Way, the Truth, and the Life"


I am not so concerned with being a "good person". I am sin. What is sin? Falling short of the mark. God is perfect. I am so far from God and always will be as a man. No matter what I do I am "condemned by the law". It is only through god's grace that salvation can come.

Most people who have known me in person hold me in high regards. It means nothing to me. I might reveal something of my past or of my thoughts and person here and now and be instantly condemned by them. It doesn't matter.

In the light of god I am completely unworthy of him… and he knows me completely.

There are two ways my sin will be paid for. Either by my being thrown into the lake of fire or by my savior the Christ. Either way is perfectly fine. While I yet remain in the world however, no matter that my nature is to do good in the eyes of men, and to be rather pleasant and such, it does not matter.

Anyways the whole point of this inquiry is what is saving faith and do I have it or not. It's a big topic and I want to have an absolutely, crystal clear view of it.

One more thing. I went and read the Quran after the KJV. At no point was I intending to become a Muslim. Had the Quran just so happened to leave a bigger impression on me, it might have led me to becoming such.

Also, when I became a pagan, I never intended to do so. I never got the idea to "go join or form a pagan community" or anything like that. All that happened is I read the works of various pagans and accepted them as truth. I only started to identify myself as a pagan because at some point I realized that was exactly what I was. Now, I might start calling myself a Christian, but for now I do not because there are certain doctrines like salvation, that I don't feel I understand well enough yet, to say that I accept the teachings of Christ and am a Christian as such.

The way I work I never make up my mind to believe or become or identify as a thing. I just go through life, have experiences, study things, etc. and end up with an identity and a set of beliefs and being the person I am; and all of this subject to change. I never rest in myself thinking I have it all figured out, I have this idea of God that is very clearly defined in my mind, and which I further seek to know by discovering more of his attributes, and in this quest I examine and question everything. The Bible is a great book that has helped. I don't know if it's "infallible" as some Christians assert it is but it might be. God will have to work to convict my heart and to reveal himself to me.

Please read the excerpts of catechisms I posted above, I would like to know if it helps you or if you have questions specifically in response.


You said you read the Bible. Out of curiosity, did you also read the books that aren't very interesting from a storytelling/poetic perspective? (Leviticus, 1 Chronicles…)

This heresy sounds plausible to me. How did they rebuke it?


Also sounds plausible.

As for pelegianism seems like bullshit to me.


Do you have links? I want to add this Didache and the others you mention to my reading pile.


Discernment and critical thinking was literally where I started my whole journey into spirituality and away from agnosticism. I'm all about that discernment and epistemology and such. I hate deception and yearn for the fullness of truth.

Am working my way top-to-bottom of thread also am dead tired so might just lay down and resume reading and responding to this thread tomorrow.


I read the entire thing start to finish including those awful boring endless geneologies where they just go on and on. However my retention in memory of it all is not 100% perfect as I got through it all in 3 weeks so some details are fuzzy for me when compared to someone that goes through it all over like a year, carefully and passionately studying and discussing each chapter.

Btw, is the Corpus Hermeticum 100% Christ-approved in your view? I can't even get the Christians I've been talking to IRL to read any bit of it as they are fearful to read anything other than the Bible so I've been wanting to get a self-professed Christian's view on whether the Corpus Hermeticum is in line with Christ's teachings or not.

It is not. Hermeticism has the ideas of Gnosticism and Hidden knowledge imbeded deep into it's roots.

… For what reason did you read *the entire Bible* in three weeks? That is reading too much too fast to even understand what you are reading, unless you are a genius or something. This is like eating a luxury meal so fast that you cannot even take the time to savour it, and you end up feeling full and uncomfortable afterward.

I have not read it. It wasn't written by a Christian so I genuinely don't know. It's not like it's a sin to read works from pagans and such, but please focus on Christian doctrine first and foremost so that you don't end up making up some syncretic weird thing.


You may want to learn about the Ecumenical Councils. They were councils that were held to define matters of faith and normalize practices in the Church, when faced with heresies and disputes.
They are named after the location where they were held. I am not Catholic but I will list them from a Catholic perspective because they have the most councils:

- Nicea I (325)
- Constantinople I (381)

So why is hidden knowledge (think pearl of great price?) and Gnosticism (which was what Christianity was originally) not Christ approved?

WE WUZ GNOSTICS GUIS until da ebil Apostolics fughing ruined Christianity an shieeeet.

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Oh boy, you're still far gone. I was in your footsteps. You're probably a person with an innate sense of spirituality as I, I compel you to search for the divinity of Christ as Lord and God.

Stop searching ((((ocultic))) texts, the hold no truth, they are there to misguide and delude the entirety of your purpose. If you are innate as I presume, you will know you are called to something. This thing I do not know, it is for your discernment.


Because esoteric knowledge is not for everyone, it exists but Christianty is for all kinds of people.
Gentiles (the lay) and Jews (the old hidden path)

Because it's not originaly Gnostic. Christ lived a real human life and was truly the Son in Flesh. He experienced human temptation yet remained perfect and sinless.

I literally have no occult texts left to read as I achieved 100% redundancy after studying a couple hundred of them.

I do not agree with your assessment at all.


Well I am not the common man.


How does any of that make it not gnostic?

Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. I know where I stand. Right now I don't really see anything in the Bible itself that I completely reject but there are various interpretations of Christians that I don't believe at all. I can't reject the Bible but I do reject what a lot of Christians are trying to make out to be the truth to me.

Also 7a4fc3 seems to be implying that only jews are allowed to study the occult and all goyim have to have a watered down and less full understanding of reality.

I've had life long "Persistent Depressive Disorder" and Anhedonia. So my life is filled with an abundance of despair and sorrow and a total lack of pleasure even in eating food. This may or may not give me a skewed perspective of things and is also probably what has driven to me Christianity because I really don't even fathom what love is as I've never had it in my life.

Nope. Something about God being like some kind of infinite pool or ocean or whatever of vitality to be drawn from without him diminishing.

Gnostics propose God could not of been in the flesh because the material world is what is the sin.


You are the common man until you fully come to Christ. You're living a dead life currently.
If you think you're too good for the Word made flesh, than I can't help you. You pride shines to bright.

No, you're miss understanding me. Ancient Judiasm was a religion literally revealed to only a select people. The revelations they recieved where hidden to the gentiles.

The propagation of occultic thinking into todays society is of a Jewish agenda to flood mankind into a luke passive relation to the spiritual realm. Ie make truth a subjective source by virtue of a vast diversity of ((((options)))).

God is objective. Truth is objective. The pathway to both is objective.

Uhhh what makes you think that gnostics think this? Also what do you even mean by "in the flesh" and "the material world"?

What I think myself is that the All is All in All. Like a hologram, the whole contained in every part.


I don't want to explain to you what a special snowflake I am but "occult realities" are very much a daily concern of my life and not something that can just be ignored. I am not able to live a life where I can just ignore it.


I don't even understand what you mean by this sentence. What is pride and what is "the word made flesh"?

All occult traditions come from Babylon and the (((Kabbalah))).
Because they literally made it up. If the (((FakeJews))) want to disobey the laws of Moses that's their damnnation, not yours.

Please, friend, don't go down this path I and others have gone down already. You will find only suffering and not God's love.

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Okay. So what? What is the relevance?

>The propagation of occultic thinking into todays society is of a Jewish agenda to flood mankind into a luke passive relation to the spiritual realm. Ie make truth a subjective source by virtue of a vast diversity of ((((options)))).

What does "occultic thinking" mean to you? Why would it lead to a lukewarm passive relation to the spiritual realm? How does various sources of information of varied quality in any way make truth subjective?


Yes.


Not sure what you mean by this. Even if you said "The pathway to both is subjective." I still wouldn't know what you mean.

The pathway to truth to me is through gnosis, critical thinking, and purity.

This is literally the docterine of Gnosticism, are you not familiar with Gnosticism? They claim the Physical world is evil and all things spiritual are Good. This is wrong. Creation is beautiful as it was made by God, and God radiates beauty through everything he creates.
You are clinging to this because you are afraid of what it could be if you where wrong. This is a hindu philosophical idea that has a lot to do with the brahman. Get out of it. It's a circular cycle, a trap, a black hole of spirituality.


I know. I have been there. I recommened praying to God. Keep talking to him, he listens. You are in a cloud of darkness, you are in an area where one is in the process of becoming, you are preparing your self to "make a leap of faith", jumping the void as it were.


Jesus is the Word of God made flesh. He was the promised messiah. Pride is a sin that bloats the ego into a sense of self idolatry. Which has been inflected upon you.

>All occult traditions come from Babylon and the (((Kabbalah))).

No they don't.

>Because they literally made it up. If the (((FakeJews))) want to disobey the laws of Moses that's their damnnation, not yours.

Uhhh what.


What's wrong with having a familiar spirit? They are just as fallible as humans mind you and just because someone has one doesn't mean you should automatically believe everything or their familiar says.

Also what do they mean by "wizards"?


I remember reading that and pausing at it. My interpretation is basically this; many people are deceived by their familiars and many also are deceived by those deceived by their familiars. I still don't see what is fundamentally wrong with having a familiar spirit.


I've seen it happen a lot but I've seen the opposite happen too. You know Socrates had a familiar named Daimon? Later on this mutated into the word Daemon and eventually to Demon. Over the years the concept as well changed, it originally meaning the familiar of Socrates, then meaning spirits in general, and at last meaning very negative and troublesome types of spirits.

What you're describing is dark gnosticism and its offshoots. I've studied many forms of gnosticism and various gnostics believed different things. There are quite a few gnostics that see the world as a prison. I hear many Christians say the world is Satan's domain and things like that btw.


Hmmmm. I sort of agree but yet not everything is beautiful and good and just. My view of the world is that it's a mix of good and evil and my view of the afterlife is that it's much the same.


I don't cling to anything. I don't hold beliefs merely because of fear. It is simply what I believe and which explains all that I know about reality. It is not a strictly hindu idea but I am familiar with Swami Vivekananda and other hindus and it's certainly featured in some of the bigger schools of hinduism. Mind you holographic universe theory was invented by a jew (David Bohm)…


I am most particularly afraid of being deceived though and this suspicion extends to the Bible, and to the spirits, and to man, and to pretty well every source through which information comes. God just helps me by revealing things to me directly but even these things I then test, knowing them in my heart to be true, but wanting to verify them anyways.


…I don't understand.


Technically, I have far lower self-worth than pretty well every Christian I've ever met, as people who have an ego or sense of grandiosity or self-worth or whatever, don't try to commit suicide. I also don't make an idol of myself. I also don't see pride as a bad thing and wish I had pride.

Christianity is made for both, those with with a mystical prowess - you, I, the Saints and many more wise figures of history. Christianity was the bridge of the hidden into the seen, this is part of reason God became man. So all could see and hear his teachings.


Occultic thinking to me is when a individual seeks internal treasure through divination of our senses. Trying to manipulate forces that our beyond our full comprehension. Occultic thinking leads to a lukewarm spiritual life because it leads to deification of the self through knowledge. Being overloaded with this ((((knowledge)))) makes us unsure of what real truth is, and the lines of subjectively and objectivity become blurred into a non-dualistic belief where nothing and everything is.


The pathway to Truth is through the way of Christ, he is the only way to the Father.
Theosis.

I've been told by a pastor that Christianity is both a mystery school and not at the same time.

Also would you not agree that Christianity has both an occult side and a not occult side?

>Occultic thinking to me is when a individual seeks internal treasure through divination of our senses. Trying to manipulate forces that our beyond our full comprehension. Occultic thinking leads to a lukewarm spiritual life because it leads to deification of the self through knowledge. Being overloaded with this ((((knowledge)))) makes us unsure of what real truth is, and the lines of subjectively and objectivity become blurred into a non-dualistic belief where nothing and everything is.

I can obtain accurate and verifiable information through extrasensory perception. As for the forces supposedly beyond our comprehension, the world seems to me to be made up of the interplay of will and desire, and all that is being manipulated in creating changes in the world is concentrated desire. Is that hard to comprehend?

I could show you an occult book that specifically counsels people to not deify themselves.

How do you have any certainty in your life? Also I think everything is a polarity but unified in a, I guess you could say, non-dual principle; the three parts forming a trinity. So hot and cold; temperature. Body and soul; spirit. Matter and energy; mind. The third part having the ultimate reality.

These people are not well read in mysticism or deep philosophy. Please don't create opinions by the words of the lay.
Satans real domain is the Human Mind of the unregenetive soul. Those who have the Holy Spirit leave this fallen place and become a regenative being, a being of life. This is Christianity, without it you will stay dead.

Of course, most of Humanity is in a sinful state of being. It's quite sad.

This is what I'm talking about when Spirituality becomes likewarm. By having so much occultic knowledge you have are in a spell of disillusion, you have no Faith in Truth, you have no Faith even in your self to discern truth. I'll pray for you.


I thought you would be more familiar with Christianity and the bible. Jesus Christ is the promised redeemer of Mankind in the Old Testament. In the old testament people have him by God's Word alone.


You should read about the 7 deadly sins, your eyes might become open to your habits.

So basically exactly what I said. Gnosis, critical thinking, and purity.

Gnosis being the way to obtain that knowledge, purity being a necessary prerequisite, and critical thinking / verification being used to test that what was received was the indeed the truth.

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Isn't theosis just a more broad concept that includes gnosis in it?

Woo I'm going to share this at the next theology meeting then. I'm tired of them saying the world is satan's domain as it seems to lead them into all kinds of error.


I think I have faith in truth but and some degree of faith in myself to discern the truth but recognize myself as fallible and subject to getting a mixed, muddled, or unclear vision. I believe that by further work to purify myself and my desires and so on, I will attain an evermore clean mind, which gives me only impressions of exactly the thing desired, without other impulses dragging in other stuff. It is a hard struggle but a necessary struggle.


Yeah I know that but "the word made flesh" what does that mean? Is that just an odd way of saying "the promised savior made incarnate"?


I've read about it but I think that pride is a virtue and that a lack of pride is the big problem in this world. I have no pride and I would surely be better if I did.

…but what does pride mean to you? Also what is its opposite?

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Not really occult as everything is pretty openly stated. But, the spiritual knowledge is infinitely deep, There is never an end to the progress you make with Christ.


No, that's not hard to comprehend at all. But you're deluded to think this is the fullness of the reality that you live in. There is much much more going on.

No thank you. Christianity is a full life view in it self. It has everything you could ever want, as it is living theology it self. As a Christian you are a being of theology.

Because I have absolute Faith, God is an objective being that I have a personal relationship with.

…but I don't think I have at all glimpsed the fullness of reality or I wouldn't be seeking to know more.

Well I pray all the time and get answers all the time but I'm not sure that counts as a "personal" relationship. Should I be able to hear the very voice of god speak to me? Should he be able to appear to me in the form of a man? Could it be that I could behold him, in a vision, and speak with as one human to another human?

If so… should I dare to try this? As I have been thinking of attempting this now for years but too hesitant to actually do it, always feeling I need to be more prepared, always thinking I might winnie the pooh up and somehow be destroyed by the encounter.

Theosis is a bit more naunced than that.

It's a way of saying it yes, but it's a much deeper translation of the idea.

You are wrong. Please read some Christian sources of what pride is, and why it is sinful.

Deification of self. I have nothing to be proud about, as everything that I have gained is given to me by God.


Humility.

I have tons of humility and I admire the people who are able to have some sense of pride even if they are delusional. It seems to make them better able to hold their ground in the world.

If there anything at all we have btw not given to us by God? Anything that we never gained but always have? It seems to me the answer is the self. However we don't "have" the self we are the self. As for everything else tacked onto this self, that is all given us by god.

Then you wouldn't be trying to contain it in a limitied world view.


You will be obliterated not by pain, but Love. You will realize how much Love you have missed in your life.

I believe in you

The self is the epicentre of your totallity.

Uhhh are you mistakenly thinking I said "I know the fullness of reality"? As I did not say that. I said the very opposite. I only have a glimpse of it. Also, as for a worldview, I have one and I am continually trying to refine that worldview, so I have some way to orient myself to reality better.


My life and circumstances have been extremely cold, extremely loveless, even by human standards. Considering the tears of joy I've seen in Christians who had, at least by human standards, an abundance of love… I am not sure that this love would not break me. I am not sure I could bare to stand to live in this world any longer if I knew even a fraction of what god's love might be.


Would your sentence lose any meaning if you said "the self is the center of your totality"? Why the "epi"?

Btw just to be very clear you are giving the approval for the following plan, namely meeting god in the form of a man?

If so, I guess I better just man up, and prepare to face my god. It seems to me like a matter as terrifying as facing death itself. I will however wait until later this month probably to do this.

The language you use here depicts containment of reality. Either or; by giving parameters such as, directional, mathmatical, observable, opposites. These words try to contain reality by giving a way of perspective. You've become reliant on language to understand Truth. Truth cannot be contained like this.

My life and circumstances have been extremely cold, extremely loveless, even by human standards. Considering the tears of joy I've seen in Christians who had, at least by human standards, an abundance of love… I am not sure that this love would not break me. I am not sure I could bare to stand to live in this world any longer if I knew even a fraction of what god's love might be.
You should read about the Saints, they didn't have very cheerful lives.

Would your sentence lose any meaning if you said "the self is the center of your totality"? Why the "epi"?
Because it creates a more vivid imagination of what I'm trying to convey, like an earthquake are actions of the self ripple out from us.

I'd love to meet God in the flesh, but do not expect something so miraculous

It is terrifying, at least it was for me. I had to face my self in the light of God.

Break out your own epistemology for me to review then because I don't see how truth can transcend perspective.

Truth is abstract from rhetoric and/or logic. It is the reason of both.
Truth is not rhetoric and/or logic but is transcendent of both.

Hmmm.

Also, Truth is objective, but personal to the degree of how one holds it.

Okay so concerning the original criticism of the language I use to describe the reality of god what would you prefer to see instead? How am I to speak intelligibly about God?

You don't God is a being, he is not an object. He has a will, he thoughts as you or I. He is ever loving, and he his fully just.

Okay so you are talking about him right now but saying "you don't" to me. How come you can talk about him but I am not allowed to?

I didn't say that. I was trying to get across to you, that the way you where looking at reality was boxing you into a dichotomy that'll eventually box in your view of God.

You may talk to God how ever you see fit.

Talking about god not talking to god.