Can the Totenkopf be used as a symbol by Christians or is it inherently...

Anthony Baker
Anthony Baker

Can the Totenkopf be used as a symbol by Christians or is it inherently pagan/satanic?

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Other urls found in this thread:

hubert-herald.nl/Christogram.htm
luebeck-kunterbunt.de/TOP100/Nazi-Katholiken.htm
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessing_Church
youtube.com/watch?v=6z4RdcHtSCU

Christian Lopez
Christian Lopez

Why do you want to use it anyway? Even if you are a Nationalsocialist, the SS Skull has nothing to do with religion

Carson Rodriguez
Carson Rodriguez

I don't know, but the Hakenkreuz is better, and definitely a Christian symbol. As is the "sun wheel" which represents the 12 Apostles and Christ.

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Jack Gray
Jack Gray

It looks hardcore.

Colton Rogers
Colton Rogers

Make your own symbol.
Christianity isn't hardcore

Jordan Rogers
Jordan Rogers

Dude, we're all skeletons underneath. Don't call it a Totenkopf when it actually carries our life.

Ryder Cooper
Ryder Cooper

Why not?

Nathaniel Mitchell
Nathaniel Mitchell

Christianity isn't hardcore
I think Christ is the most hardcore man to have ever lived. He conquered death itself for all of eternity. Demons shudder at the sound of His name. God is awesome.

As is the "sun wheel" which represents the 12 Apostles and Christ.
Interesting, I had not heard this before.

God created skeletons.

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Nathan Diaz
Nathan Diaz

CRINGE

Jordan Harris
Jordan Harris

Isn't pic 1 the swastika, and pic 2 the black sun?

Nathan Hughes
Nathan Hughes

Christianity isn't hardcore
t. knows nothing about straight edge punk

Lucas Harris
Lucas Harris

Christianity isn't hardcore
For a fire is kindled in mine anger, and shall burn unto the lowest hell, and shall consume the earth with her increase, and set on fire the foundations of the mountains. I will heap mischiefs upon them; I will spend mine arrows upon them. They shall be burnt with hunger, and devoured with burning heat, and with bitter destruction: I will also send the teeth of beasts upon them, with the poison of serpents of the dust. - Deuteronomy 32:22-24

See now that I, even I, am he, and there is no god with me: I kill, and I make alive; I wound, and I heal: neither is there any that can deliver out of my hand. – Deuteronomy 32:39

I will make mine arrows drunk with blood, and my sword shall devour flesh; and that with the blood of the slain and of the captives, from the beginning of revenges upon the enemy. – Deuteronomy 32:42

Surely thou wilt slay the wicked, O God: depart from me therefore, ye bloody men. - Psalm 139:19

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me. - Luke 19:27

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Cooper Brooks
Cooper Brooks

Straight edge culture is like the least Christian subculture ever besides maybe black metal. Chain of strength, minor threat, youth of today, project x… Hardly Christian.

Why is being hardcore a good thing?

Jordan Butler
Jordan Butler

Why is being hardcore a good thing?
Define hardcore.

Josiah Edwards
Josiah Edwards

I mean when I think of hardcore I think of it kinda tongue in cheek doing things to prove you're a badass. You can be tough and strong these are good traits. Hardcore doesn't seem like a good trait if you're going for it. Like Jesus was hardcore because look at what he did but he wasn't going for hardcore…he just was. Also the posts in reply to me went from Jesus to hell to hardcore punk…so who even knows

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Eli Ortiz
Eli Ortiz

Trying to be hardcore is usually just trying to be edgy.

Jonathan Perez
Jonathan Perez

It's gonna be hard making the Totenkopf into a christian symbol considering it has martial applications and history (ranging from the Prussian calvary, pirates, and the good ol boys in the SS)

But assuming the Totenkopf is 100% orginal and didn't have the historical baggage, how would it work as a Christian symbol? Jesus Christ defeated death and his body was sent to heaven. He didn't decompose into a skeleton.

Enlighten me how it could be a Christian image?

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Landon Myers
Landon Myers

Why add symbols to a religion that isn't symbolic? Symbols are only necessary for representation and communication. Nazi symbols only communicate that you're a prick who wants to represent your heritage instead of representing Christ.

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Ian Torres
Ian Torres

You know what's more hardcore than your edgy teenage skullz? Crucifixion.

Asher Evans
Asher Evans

Its already a part of Christian symbolism.

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Jonathan Miller
Jonathan Miller

Like Jesus was hardcore because look at what he did but he wasn't going for hardcore…he just was.
Exactly, Jesus was just hardcore. Sweating blood is hardcore. So is the crucifixion:

There is tons of symbolism in the Bible (not to say that it is not also literal).

user, you might be interested in looking into Christian symbolism throughout the ages, especially early Christian symbolism such as Christograms. They are very cool.

hubert-herald.nl/Christogram.htm

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Zachary Morris
Zachary Morris

Does the skull represent golgotha (the place of the skull, the hill that Christ was crucified on)?

Xavier Reed
Xavier Reed

Yes, and I believe his victory over death is also a valid interpretation as well.

David Jenkins
David Jenkins

his victory over death
Makes sense, because He is above the skull and bones. I hadn't seen that before on a crucifix, very cool. I just learned that the shamrock is sometimes used to symbolize the holy trinity.

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Isaac Gonzalez
Isaac Gonzalez

that's partialism, patrick

Benjamin Cruz
Benjamin Cruz

I'm gonna stab you in the face Patrick
lmao
Well then, clover leaf symbolism btfo.

Samuel Bell
Samuel Bell

no recreational alcohol
no hallucinogenic drugs
no tattoos
veganism/fasting
health and fitness
Which part of this is anti-christian?

Jonathan Rodriguez
Jonathan Rodriguez

In recent years fedora tippers have been pushing the 'Third Reich was Christian' narrative, but if you actually look at the history the Third Reich was just one giant pagan larp. Hitler's public speeches were pro-christian while his private talks were [apparently] anti-Christian. Since Hitler himself was a career politician I believe it's foolish to believe whatever he had to say at face value. We can however judge him by the company he kept and the people he appointed: Martin Bormann, Heinrich Himmler, Joseph Goebbels and Alfred Rosenberg: All anti-Christians and neo-Pagans.

Under Himmler, the SS was to be "the vanguard in overcoming Christianity and restoring a Germanic way of living". Himmler's Sicherheitsdienst started the "War on the Church" in which Catholic churches and clergy were prosecuted. There's also the
Priest Barracks of Dachau Concentration Camp.

TLDR: The SS Totenkopf is pagan and anti-Christian.

Cooper Garcia
Cooper Garcia

You're forgetting the anti religious songs. Punk is not Christian and never will be.
Also straight edge ain't anti tattoos.

Justin Garcia
Justin Garcia

Table talk
The book may be a fraud or may be heavily edited. The English translation included quotes that were not in the original text(the anti-christian stuff) and it was compiled by Bormann - anti-catholic, published after wwii, the French and English translation vary very much.
I have read several memoirs of actual soldiers as well as "Leitheft" and this is clearly not true. I am not saying 100% were christian. There were some pagans and people who were not christian But if you tell me that a slogan "Rex will win" of the Belgian foreign legions is pagan you should re-evaluate your sources.
It literally means "Christ will triumph".
Funny huh? Does not sound as a "giant pagan larp"

Jaxson Martinez
Jaxson Martinez

If you base your whole view on one book that may be fraudulent then you as well may stick with the official documentaries/movies.
Yeah I am aware of this narrative and there was a time when I bought it but looking into their own sources I find it highly unlikely.
Just saying.

Wyatt Morgan
Wyatt Morgan

It isn't inherently pagan/satanic but I would not use it as a Christian symbol.

Brandon Myers
Brandon Myers

co-opting non-Christian symbols just to be edgy

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Joshua Young
Joshua Young

How about we retake the rainbow instead by using it as a Christian symbol? It's been muddied by hedonists despite being an actual Christian symbol unlike all the edgy crap here.

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Colton Sullivan
Colton Sullivan

What about all the bone churches in Europe?

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Aaron Collins
Aaron Collins

Edgy and cult-like, but Christian in nature, we're also talking about a Church here a house of God, not just a mere symbol and what a certain symbol is associated with.

Alexander Jackson
Alexander Jackson

A thread died for this nonsense

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Jack Rodriguez
Jack Rodriguez

I actually do love the aesthetics of these Churches myself, didn't know there were more of them than just the one in the Czech Republic.

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Ryder Jones
Ryder Jones

Is there any good reason to associate oneself with the Nazis? Apart from being incredibly murderous and a completely failed movement, they were also inherently anti-Christian, sometimes implicitly and sometimes explicitly. It's one thing to be hated by the world for righteousness sake, it's another thing entirely to be hated by the world for adopting an unpopular form of worldliness.

Cooper Garcia
Cooper Garcia

It's not explicitly a Nazi symbol. It's been around since the 1700s.

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Camden James
Camden James

it isn't if you're a protestant

Parker Walker
Parker Walker

Hakenkreuz
Christian symbol
sun wheel
represents the 12 apostles
Do you spread scandal on purpose or are you just seriously bound and determined to make the Nazis seem Christian?

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Asher James
Asher James

hence why I said Prussian Cavalry and pirates

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Owen Wood
Owen Wood

is there any good reason to associate Christianity with Nazis

If communist filth tried to pull the same crap they did in the Weimar Republic, I'd side with the Nazis too.

Aside from that really no reason.

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Christian Martinez
Christian Martinez

Hitler never called it the swastika. He called it the Hakenkreuz, or hooked cross. This is the real reason kikes fear this symbol and have done everything they can to make it taboo or illegal. Kikes are called succh because they hate Christ and the cross so much, they'd use circles (kikels) rather than X's, because they look like crosses.
I have to dig up my source on the Sonnenrad representing Christ and the 12 Apostles. It could be a stretch, granted.

Adolf Hitler was, for all intents and purposes, the last Holy Roman Emperor. He fought and died for Christianity.

Colton Mitchell
Colton Mitchell

Hitler
last Holy Roman Emperor.

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Ethan Green
Ethan Green

More believeable than whatever lies you were told in "Table Talk".

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Colton King
Colton King

Ah, yes. The rainbow. The sad thing about that one is I see pictures of churches with rainbow flags or ministers wearing rainbow vestments as "proof" that the church promotes faggotry. We definitely need to reclaim the rainbow. Though there is a pretty simple way to tell the difference:
7 bands = God's symbol
6 bands = "Gay Pride"

Leo Fisher
Leo Fisher

…and also a "memento mori" for us.

Camden Kelly
Camden Kelly

Even ignoring tabletalks, Himmler was a know occultist paganfag, though, and all 3 branches of Christendom got into trouble whenever they disagreed with nazi policies.

Siding with someone who's gone full retard in the opposite direction, just because the other side does bad shit is the reason for most geopolitical messes nowadays.

Parker Bell
Parker Bell

Even ignoring tabletalks, Himmler was a know occultist paganfag, though, and all 3 branches of Christendom got into trouble whenever they disagreed with nazi policies.
Precisely. The fact that there is any doubt about the status of Christianity within Hitler and Nazism in general is an argument against it as any genuine Christian ideology must be first and foremost Christian, not a useful political addendum to be focused upon when most fitting to its leaders. Christianity is not a piece of some secular ideology, but the foremost and greatest part of a man's worldview and understanding; Nazism reduces Christianity to a sideline.
This is already disregarding the fact that Nazism and fascism delve too far into the realms of social Darwinism, mortal arrogance, and idolatry even at the best of times. The diagnosis of society put forward by the modern Nazi is hardly incorrect, but the treatment is that of an already once botched, tainted, and ultimately heretical ideology clouded by occultist nonsense and selfishness. There is only one way to eternal salvation, only one path one can walk to gain salvation in the next life and true goodness in this life; Christianity.

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Colton Peterson
Colton Peterson

Weimar was a shit hole that was being subverted by communists. It doesn't help the currency failed spectacularly. So given the choice between Militant Atheism in Communism or Positive Christianity in Nazi Germany, yes I'd choose the Germans over (((communism))) everytime.

Landon Adams
Landon Adams

That's a false dichotomy. You can always chose the truth, which is Christianity. Not some watered-down heretical state-controlled sect of Christianity created for political purposes.

Cameron King
Cameron King

Christianity is hardcore

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Anthony Martin
Anthony Martin

Positive Christianity
yes I'd choose
im gonna support and subscribe to one of the most blasphemous, revolting and insulting mods to Christianity, because winnie the pooh commies

No, no, a thousand times no.

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Charles Myers
Charles Myers

The skull and bones is an Orthodox symbol.
As is the "sun wheel" which represents the 12 Apostles and Christ.
chuckled

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Ian Taylor
Ian Taylor

Please show me where I mentioned Table Talks.

Hey did you know about the 13th Waffen Mountain Division of the SS Handschar? It was a Muslin volunteer division, that totally means the Third Reich was Islamic, right? You can dance around my comment by talking about how non-German cannon fodder had different political and religious views, but the people who spearheaded Nazi ideology, people Hitler himself appointed were all either neo-pagans or anti-Christians, and that can give us a good guess on Hitler's views on the Christian faith.

For further reading i'd recommend: Inside the Third Reich, the memoir of Albert Speer, The Goebbels Diaries and the The Nazi Master Plan; The Persecution of Christian Churches.
Or you can actually bother to look up any of the men and events I listed in the other post.

Sebastian Wilson
Sebastian Wilson

Private conversations
those private talks -anti christian ones - are sourced back to guess what…fraudulent table talks
muh Handschar
Well who does not know about them. So what few muslims volunteered to fight bolshevism.
I will look at the books you listed.
I recommend you check out Leithefts, Mein Kampf, Campaign in Russia.
You know…I take at face value firstly the things written by the people themselves…not someone smearing them as "nazis" right in the title of the book.
I am no "stormfag" just to be clear here….but I disagree with your "giant pagan larp" simply by reading through memoirs and through official materials of the waffen.

Nathaniel James
Nathaniel James

The more I think about this thread it seems like a baiting attempt.
Seriously…who would want to co-opt a symbolism that is not inherently Christian, as implicitly Christian?
I mean what is even your aim for that? I do not uderstand

Mason Stewart
Mason Stewart

In orthodoxy, it represents a legend which states that Golgotha got its name because that’s where Adam was buried, and that the blood of Christ soaked the earth right where the skull of Adam was. In a more mystical sense, it’s showing the death of Jesus defeated the curse of death and decay Adam and Eve brought to the earth.

Wyatt Long
Wyatt Long

Concidering the icon of Christ Pantocrator has a rainbow about it, I would agree.
This VSauce video from a while back is interesting though, since blue and the purple derived from it weren’t actually depicted in rainbows until fairly recently.

Sebastian Smith
Sebastian Smith

Is the Hakenkreuz inherently anti-Christian?

Connor Jackson
Connor Jackson

Christianity has so many good symbols, some smiling skeleton just doesn't fit.

James Phillips
James Phillips

Dab on them rattlebois

Isaac Ramirez
Isaac Ramirez

But it's spooky.

William Campbell
William Campbell

It makes enough people angry.

Easton James
Easton James

I mean, the Christian symbol is a crucifix which already symbolizes death. Well, the Catholic cross that leaves Christ on it. The protestant cross is empty because He is risen.

Brandon Watson
Brandon Watson

doot doot

Luis Jackson
Luis Jackson

This is all neutral geometry. Christians use pentagrams as well as hexagrams, is that scandalous? I don't know of a historical use of the black sun as a christian symbol instead, but could it not be used as one?

Asher Foster
Asher Foster

The swastika has a long history in hinduism and Buddhism, which I believe predates any Christian use. It's appearance makes it look like it is turning, like a wheel, which would make sense given in hinduism time is seen as cyclical with ages repeating themselves, and the whole notion of the cycle of karma, reincarnation, etc. Why use symbols associated with false religions? That's aside from all the baggage Hitler brings.

Caleb Perry
Caleb Perry

Because again, it's neutral geometry. It's a part of God's creation. Would you stop using candles because pagans might use them in their rituals?

Ethan Gomez
Ethan Gomez

Are you cool with churches using stars of David? Since they're just geometry.

Jack Richardson
Jack Richardson

The star of David is a hexagram. Hexagrams have been used through out history in Christianity, much before neo-Jews picked it up. Of course a Christian should not use "The Star of David", but it's great if they use a proper christian hexagram. This is what I'm trying to convey, geometric shapes are just neutral things, but you can apply them with different intentions. You know the All Seeing Eye is a christian symbol before it was a Masonic one?

Joseph Clark
Joseph Clark

The point is that it means something to humans, we are humans, we want to communicate effectively and not confusingly to other humans. Using a symbol popularly associated in the public consciousness with something unchristian is unwise. I'm not claiming the symbol is inherently evil but we're not in a vacuum. I mean it's like if I said "f*** Jesus" and when you got offended I said "What's the matter, they're just vowels and consonants that I combined, it's not like there's something inherent in those sounds that makes it sound blasphemous, it's just our man made language that developed out of our human culture, every sound comes from God after all!"

Juan James
Juan James

It's appearance makes it look like it is turning, like a wheel, which would make sense given in hinduism time is seen as cyclical with ages repeating themselves, and the whole notion of the cycle of karma, reincarnation, etc.
Hinduism has cyclical view of history. However the meaning of swastika and other solar symbols is quite different. It expresses the solar principle - one imovable center, the deity, the one which creates everything.
Pagan,old.
Yeah you may say that. The "religions" are rudimentary in their understtanding of Logos. Christianity is the only true religion because the Truth is revealed in full sense. Other religions are only partial truth - which makes them a lie, or they are a complete inversion of Christianity - such as Judaism.
However. Some symbols were used for a long time, Solar symbols as swastika or kolovrat or whatever are a part of a specific culture. There is nothing inherently "pagan" about them. FOr example in area where I live on traditional folk houses there are sometimes carved/painted symbols of sun/afterlife/etc. Pagans did not build those houses, christians did. Of course various peoples accepted christianity that does not mean they omitted all symbols. Yes…the understanding of Logos was rudimentary before adopting christianity. Yes, it does not suffice to use them. But that does not make your use of various swastikas/other symbols inherently wrong. Just as using those symbols does not make you a pagan. For an instance if you wear runes/kolovrat on your neck and you do not perform any "pagan religious service" you are not pagan, just a larper at most.

I do not see any issue with using symbols that belong to your folk.
Before "The Star of David" larping was invented y christ killers (notice that according to wikipedia its use is first noted in 12th century or so…by the jewish sources. Earlier theere are no proofs) The hexagram was used for a long time, not as a star of remphan, a pagan deity.
But jews adopted this pagan symbol.

One disclaimer: If you are a Zionist and you wear the star of remphan "le star of David" meme you overtly insult God because you larp as a christ killer.
Read John Chrysostom, throw it out and repent
You will not insult God by wearing your folks symbols that are not contradictory to Christianity. That would be as claiming you insult God because you are Roman Catholic and you do not speak latin.
Good point here. Masons and Jews took christian symbols or rites and inverted them for their own purposes. If you see the all seeing eye in church, that does not make it a masonic building.

Kevin Hall
Kevin Hall

Considering how trashy nowadays the entertainment industry is I do not see how people think that this depicting is anyhow less pathetic than let's say for example, movies about hookup culture on high school or "sagas" such as GoT.
One point: the print and entertainment industry are not a source of education. They do not have any moral or legal binding to tell truth and they certainly do not do it.
Scenes as this are more of a caricature of those who produce them.
Just saying. God bless

Asher Diaz
Asher Diaz

We should retake both the rainbow and the Totenkopf tbh.

Parker Turner
Parker Turner

Only if the two symbols are combined.

Ayden Watson
Ayden Watson

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Julian Gomez
Julian Gomez

Troll? Bait? Stupidity? All 3?

Matthew Mitchell
Matthew Mitchell

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James Ward
James Ward

This, but unironically.

Elijah Roberts
Elijah Roberts

The universal symbol of our faith is one of the most brutal instruments of execution of all time. Where do you think you are?

Adam Gutierrez
Adam Gutierrez

Germany between 1933 and 1945 was definitely Christian, the NSDAP leaders were mostly Catholic. Adolf Hitler gave great sums to Catholic and Evangelic churches in Germany
read:
luebeck-kunterbunt.de/TOP100/Nazi-Katholiken.htm
TLDR: The SS Totenkopf is pagan and anti-Christian.
The "SS Totenkopf" was inherited from Christian Prussian symbolism
Where is it pagan? Can you point me to the parts of heathenry mythology that are about the Skull?
The Totenkopf was invented by Christian Prussians
Stop getting your education from Hollywood movies, if you don't know something don't say anything.

Elijah Garcia
Elijah Garcia

Adolf Hitler gave great sums to Catholic and Evangelic churches in Germany

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Confessing_Church

Quit LARPing
Also this website isn't for underaged

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Evan Foster
Evan Foster

What's your point?

Aaron Jackson
Aaron Jackson

Prussian husars wore the skull long before

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Gavin Jackson
Gavin Jackson

The "SS Totenkopf" was inherited from Christian Prussian symbolism
So was "Gott mit unt" or whatever it's spelled like.
The nazis didn't adopt those because they were christian, they adopted it because they were stating a continuity between the german army and the Prussian military, and it's traditions.

It'd be like a romanian army division adding a falx or a wolf banner to their emblems.
Doesn't make them zamolxians, but affirming a continuity with their ancestors.

Actually, 90% of nazi symbols were claiming a continuity with some real or mythologized part of historical "germanism".

From the teutonic knights, to saying they are the "Third" Reich, to the Black Sun(likely an iron age Zierscheibe) to the prehistoric germanic runes used in the logos of the SS and other orgs, to the PIE swastika.

Everything the nazis did(from symbols, to the state, to religion, etc.) was subordinated to proclaiming their german-ness and aryan-ness, nor their theism.

John Perry
John Perry

to saying they are the "Third" Reich
Like I said
Stop getting your education from Hollywood movies, if you don't know something don't say anything.

Carson Sullivan
Carson Sullivan

To add on that, and I apologize for using too rude language
The "German Empire" was actually known as "Deutsches Reich"
The Weimar Republic" was actually known as "Deutsches Reich"
The "Third Reich" was actually known as "Deutsches Reich"
The term "Third Reich" doesn't exist outside of Hollywood History, it has no basis in reality besides of "Ah, those huns who want to burn bibles and eat babies are back now!"
They deny that Germany was an inherently Christian nation, with very deep ingrained Christian values and history that goes back about 1600 years for war propaganda
The only thing Hitler talked of you might think of is the "Thousand Year Reich", obviously based on the Christian Holy Roman Empire, that lasted 1006 years
And this crime of uniting the German churches would obviously be a key, the religious split of Germany is a great catastrophe that was created by arrogance from both sides, and creates two artificial populations that are at each others throat
Why can't we have something like Ukraine? They can create their church so they don't have to view to foreigners for spiritual leadership?

Jacob Butler
Jacob Butler

And this crime of uniting the German churches would obviously be a key, the religious split of Germany is a great catastrophe that was created by arrogance from both sides, and creates two artificial populations that are at each others throat

Yeah, but he didn't care which group ended up devouring the other, and sent caths and prots that didn't want to get with his political program underground.

Why can't we have something like Ukraine? They can create their church so they don't have to view to foreigners for spiritual leadership?
You know the second largest church in Ukraine are the Greek Catholics, which are in the same situation, right?

James Brown
James Brown

And regardless, that proves my point.
The entire nomenclature existed to show continuity with the historic Germany, christian and pagan, not out of spiritual considerations.

Nathaniel Jones
Nathaniel Jones

Veganism and demonizing alcohol are both anti-Christian (veganism is okay in theory but equating killing animals for food with murder isn't, and almost all of them do that). Straight-edgers are much more likely than normies to get tattoos too.

Jack Phillips
Jack Phillips

The concept of one German nation didn’t exist until very recently. Hitler was emulating the HRE which was a Christian institution but more centralised. Before that they were just scattered tribes fighting each other. The HRE brought some semblance of stability in Europe.

Kevin Hughes
Kevin Hughes

youtube.com/watch?v=6z4RdcHtSCU

Sebastian Ortiz
Sebastian Ortiz

define recent

Anthony Bell
Anthony Bell

So is the Totenkopf appropriate or not?

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