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It obviously meant spiritually

then you make god a liar
appeal to authority

If you're seeing a contradiction, you need to explain it

Out of curiosity, what do you think of Job 14:4?
Not saying you're wrong, just genuinely not sure what the verse means.

Bruh this is the oldest topic on the board, and you're posting about 30 pages worth of content on it in a separate link. Just make a better thread next time instead of making a worse one to whine in.

Paul expressly states that he is a spiritual father to the church at Corinth, having fathered them through the gospel. The contradiction with your interpretation of Matthew 23:9 is self evident.

However, when it's Protestants and Orthodox who are targeted…

Remember it's Job speaking, it isn't absolute truth or anything similar.

Context.

Ok. I was just confused by the verse because I've always felt God can bring good out of anything.

it is ABSOLUTELY an appeal to authority. Jesus Christ gave the Apostles HIS FULL AUTHORITY. To reject the Apostles is to reject Jesus Christ.

Because it says "Call no man father in the spiritual sense". Oh wait, it actually doesn't. It actually just says Father.

We can both agree he meant this spiritually.

If you are suggesting that taking heed to:

Matthew 9

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven"

Is considered being disobedient to Paul you are by definition suggesting Paul was against Jesuses teaching in matthew which is objectively heresy.

Noone can do something if God doesnt give them the power to do so (since God is the absolute governing power, if God doesnt want you to do something your not going to have the power to do it) and ultimately it IS God that saves the spirit

Titus 3:5
“He saved us, not because of righteous things we had done, but because of his mercy. He saved us through the washing of rebirth and renewal by the Holy Spirit"

Yes God did use Paul as an instrument to save the people in question but its through Gods spirit they are saved not through Paul.

Catholics call a man father and confess thier sins to him making him like a god when God is the only true spiritual father of all and the only one that can grant independence of sin"

No im not, he was used to be a tool and that was what he was referring to NOT giving honor to himself but to God

Matthew 9

"And call no man your father upon the earth: for one is your Father, which is in heaven"

What you are basically saying is that you should call the one that converted you father.

find me any apostle or Church that taught this.

not just any apostle, the ones Christ all His Authority with. what you teach is completely new.

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the intricacies of the title of "Father" escape you, utterly. Father, refers to God, the Father. The uncreated Creator, outside of all creation. The first person-hood of the Triune God.

your personal interpretation threatens the Trinity itself!

Jesus was rebuking practices of pharices who wanted to be exalted by titles

"8 But you, do not be called ‘Rabbi’; for One is your Teacher, the Christ, and you are all brethren. 9 Do not call anyone on earth your father; for One is your Father, He who is in heaven. 10 And do not be called teachers; for One is your Teacher, the Christ. 11 But he who is greatest among you shall be your servant. 12 And whoever exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted"

Like having people call you father as a title (in a spiritual sense ofc)

scripture itself uses father in a spiritual sense. if you accept this in its fullest sense, then you deny the Trinity.

is Jesus Christ not true man? then He denies He is God.

Of course, but what does that have to do with Paul stating that he spiritually fathered the church at Corinth through the gospel?

And when he had said this, he shewed them his hands and his side. The disciples therefore were glad, when they saw the Lord.
He said therefore to them again: Peace be to you. As the Father hath sent me, I also send you.
When he had said this, he breathed on them; and he said to them: Receive ye the Holy Ghost.
Whose sins you shall forgive, they are forgiven them; and whose sins you shall retain, they are retained. -John 20:20-23
We have records stretching back to Pope Clement, the third successor of Peter, exhorting the faithful to "submit themselves to the presbyters and receive correction so as to repent" in his epistle to the corinthians. There is absolutely no effort that penance was done by any means in the early church other than through confession, nor that there was any other form of church governance than the ecclesiastical, for that matter.

what?

Matthew 4:5-7
satan can quote scripture. scripture can be misconstrued when taken out of context. jesus shows us that the key to avoiding this is to know scripture well enough to not misinterpret one line without the context of the rest of the bible. begone satan!

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I agree wholeheartedly, you misinterpreted what I said

I said that justification is LIKE

For refrence he said that "So why should Paul's spiritual children have been disobedient to Paul?"

God the father saved those people through paul, giving paul honor for those people being saved is wrong because only Gods spirit can save people.

Does your salvation lay in God or the doctrine of the Catholic church?

i'm not rejecting the apostles, you're committing a fallacy

No, no, no, you're still lost.

Jesus Christ taught that no man should be called "Father", in the outside of all creation sense. You are conflating "spiritual" to mean God, the Father. Which is your own teaching, because no Apostle or Church ever taught it.

God left His Salvation in the doctrine of His Church.

You're guilty of heresy, Jesus Christ was given all authority on this earth by His Father, and He left it with His Apostles. He who denies them, rejects Him. Remember that part?

Dude your interpretation has been proved bunk via Paul's own words already, and your only response was to address obvious qualifiers implicit in that statement instead of the statement itself. What is the point of all this?

God, duh. but jesus created the church to feed his lambs.

It waset meant as a title for Paul to be honored simply as an observation to honor God. Unless you are saying Paul, who rebukes people who takes spiritual gifts as titles wanted to be honored daily by the church because he was used by God?

1 cor 4

"7 For who makes you different from anyone else? What do you have that you did not receive? And if you did receive it, why do you boast as though you did not?"

The repentance you are talking about was repentace and prayer too and for one another for spiritual healing, not telling your "father" what sins you have committed. The cleansing comes from God not from a person, you point proves nothing.

Ill just qoute myself and we can go from there

I agree wholeheartedly, you misinterpreted what I said

I said that justification is LIKE

For refrence he said that "So why should Paul's spiritual children have been disobedient to Paul?"

God the father saved those people through paul, giving paul honor for those people being saved is wrong because only Gods spirit can save people"

Yes, so when the church starts going against Jesuses teaching how can it be from him?

Saying a heritical church is from God is blashemy!

Both Paul and Timothy are referred to as "fathers in faith". In faith, refers to a purely spiritual sense, not as God, the Father.

You don't get to decide what Christ meant! His Apostles knew, and they begat the tradition of "fatherhood through faith".

You don't get to decide what is heretical!

All I hear is your own personal interpretation over and over. What can be done with you?

No he didn't thats called adding to the scripture so you're wrong on all accounts

Paul was against the idea of titles giving authority and distinction based on spiritual strengths why would he want EXACTLY THAT to be a common church practice?

because its still composed of fallible humans. i'm curious, do you know greek, hebrew or aramaic by any chance?

You dont get to decide who is a devil based on criticism against your church without making a valid point.

So im gonna taje something from my lknk and we can discuss it biblically

"Roman Catholics borrowed the idea of praying with beads from the pagan religions who were already using them hundreds of years before: In 456 AD, Hindus are thought to have introduced the concept of praying with beads to the world. The earliest reference to a rosary (boberkhas) is in their "Jain Canon" (456 AD) These boberkhas had various numbers of beads 6,9,12,18,36 (any sub-multiple of 108) Islam (610 AD) uses a rosary of 99 beads, one for each of the names of God. Buddhists have 108 prayer beads on the string. The Rosary is of pagan origin and no Christian prior to 1000 AD used beads to pray.

"And when you are praying, do not use meaningless repetition as the Gentiles do, for they suppose that they will be heard for their many words. Matthew 6"

Miss me with that gay shit.

I know a bit of ancient hebrew and greek if thats what you are asking

The only reason your asking my proficiency with those languages is because of a lowblow scumbag attempt to discredit me.

The whole point of this thread is to show the blatant differences between canonical scripture and catholicism.

If the pope says that your whole bloodline wont go to heaven will you believe him?

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Lets have some context then:

Matthew 23

Then Jesus said to the crowds and to his disciples: 2 “The teachers of the law and the Pharisees sit in Moses’ seat. 3 So you must be careful to do everything they tell you. But do not do what they do, for they do not practice what they preach. 4 They tie up heavy, cumbersome loads and put them on other people’s shoulders, but they themselves are not willing to lift a finger to move them.

5 “Everything they do is done for people to see: They make their phylacteries[a] wide and the tassels on their garments long; 6 they love the place of honor at banquets and the most important seats in the synagogues; 7 they love to be greeted with respect in the marketplaces and to be called ‘Rabbi’ by others.

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

You can clearly see Jesus was rebuking people for putting such a high regard for titles

Look at this part especially: 8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven.

Look im not trying to antagonize you but its clear as day.

What if a church is proven to be sweltering with heresy?

Are you then saying something contradicting Gods word ie

Praying through mary when the bible says

"Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me"

So your point is what? The bead prayer thing is comparable to the our father and therefore I am wrong?

How bout the fact that you not only are biblically wrong by repeating the same prayer over and over (thats based on a pagan ritual) but you commit heresy by hailing a person 53 times IN your repetitive prayer.

14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

But you yourself say that anyone who calls another their spiritual father is disobedient. And what priest takes it as a mark of honor for being called father? If they do that's pure pride, and their own individual problem, not a condemnation of God's church.
Nobody denies that the cleansing comes from God, yet unless you want to deny Jesus in John 20 and Clement in the earliest writings of the christians then you yourself are denying the sacraments Christ instituted for nothing. Show me evidence one early christian community that rejected the confessional or the priesthood in general and maybe I'll change my mind.

Atempt at character assassination is unnecessary.

no one comes to jesus except through mary

You are comparing apples and oranges, paul never said it should be a title he was simply just making the observation that God used him as an instrument giving honor to God.

Well catholic ministers dont take it as a mark of dishonor but thats not the point, lets take the verse you qouted initially

For though ye have ten thousand instructors in Christ, yet have ye not many fathers: for in Christ Jesus I have begotten you through the gospel. -1 Corinthians 4:15

We can both agree Paul was talking to his church of people,

God used him to save these people, if there would come somoene else in charge of the church should they now call him "father"? He didn't save them so why should they?

Jesus spicifically adressed this when he was rebuking the idea of titles that give spiritual distinction

Matthew 23:4

8 “But you are not to be called ‘Rabbi,’ for you have one Teacher, and you are all brothers. 9 And do not call anyone on earth ‘father,’ for you have one Father, and he is in heaven. 10 Nor are you to be called instructors, for you have one Instructor, the Messiah. 11 The greatest among you will be your servant. 12 For those who exalt themselves will be humbled, and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Unbiblical heresy.

then tell me how jesus got to earth, big guy

God put Him here, duh.

Luke 11:27-29 King James Version (KJV)

27 And it came to pass, as he spake these things, a certain woman of the company lifted up her voice, and said unto him,

its been a practice since ancient times to repent directly to God

Daniel 9 is a good example of this where daniel repents and asks for forgiveness to the lord on behalf of his people.

Books Paul wrote preach the idea of communal handeling of sin and troubles (bear each others burdens etc) which is in line with Jesuses teachings,

According to my understanding of Catholic doctrine (and im open to be corrected) the idea of ministerial confession comes from

John 20

19 On the evening of that first day of the week, when the disciples were together, with the doors locked for fear of the Jewish leaders, Jesus came and stood among them and said, “Peace be with you!” 20 After he said this, he showed them his hands and side. The disciples were overjoyed when they saw the Lord.

21 Again Jesus said, “Peace be with you! As the Father has sent me, I am sending you.” 22 And with that he breathed on them and said, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23 If you forgive anyone’s sins, their sins are forgiven; if you do not forgive them, they are not forgiven.”

Now cattholic doctrine creates a slippery slope.

Who was Jesus talking to here?

Do only catholic ministers have the holy spirit? If not then any christian can grant forgiveness of sin, if so only catholic ministers have renewed spirits in God because it is Gods spirit that renew us.

By a human God chose to give birth to Jesus, there is no biblical basis for praying through Mary.

Based.

john 19

Ok so mary is still just a human chosen to give birth to Jesus, where's the verse that says the only way to Jesus is through mary?

Mary is still just a person Jesus is the one that saved humanity.

jesus literally came into the world through mary

And? Saying that that makes her more than human has no biblical basis, it was the angel that told mary she is pregnant does that mean that youd have to pray through the angel to pray through mary to pray through Jesus to pray to God?

God is the one that deserves the credit for sending Jesus and Mary was just chosen to give birth to Jesus she was still human, praying to a human is objective heresy even if God did use them for something extrodionary and amazing.

Where is the bible verse that says you need to pray through Mary?

The bible clearly states you should pray through Jesus.

14:6

Jesus answered, "I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me

There is no verse that supports your claim that you should pray through Mary.

Jesus is humanity's savior.

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Nha

What's the point of those threads? Wouldn't it be more useful to pick a particular tenet of Catholicism and discuss it instead of creating the millionth shit flinging thread?

Because what you are suggesting just brings out the "grind a subject down until it loses traction" tipe of thread that ive seen and been apart of so many times, its easier when you make a general subject and different people tackle different things, it works like a room of people talking and as you walk through the room you hear two people talking about something you have knowledge on and ad your opinion.

If I did what you said it would be more like a group of people yelling at one person which throws any chance of having coherant conversation out the window.

Admittedly this approach does have limits, when the thread gets too long people tend not to look at older posts but having coherant conversation is better.

But I do understand that this board does get harrased but I would make long responses if that was my intention.

not*