Before you say god exists take a look at this:

haha op thanks for showing me this haha thanks man!!
NOW IM SCARED TO KILL MYSELF xDD
HAHAHA like I mean now I'm stuck winnie the poohed while I made my family and I and the world in pain hahahaha THE LEAST I COULD HAVE DONE WAS KILL MYSELF BUT NOOOO SOME OGRISH/LIVELEAK/ROTTEN.COM autist had to show me this :)

Psalm 22
God, why have you forsaken me?
GOD, why have you forsaken me?
Why did you do this God?

I can't escape
We're in pain. We have nothing. I keep crying out to you God. Just sometimes I want to just say Fuhhhck you God. Like why?
I mean I'm closer to you and have given myself up to you but why do you insist on all of this pain?
JUST winnie the pooh KILL ME PLEASE

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God wants you to be a better person, to fight through the adversity and to put faith in Him.

fundamentally all modern theologians agree, even catholic theologians, that the problem of evil is still unsolved

no reason to believe that, people are influenced by parents and genetics, their choices are limited

The only way to get rid of evil entirely would be to get rid of sin entirely.
Sin is the choice to disobey God.
The only way to get ride of sin entirely would be to get rid of free will entirely.
If someone were to tell you God planned your every move, you'd call him a strict and evil being. Therefore, you don't want to end free will. Therefore, you don't want to end sin. Therefore, you don't want to end evil. Therefore, you're a hypocrite.
Alternatively, God receives no glory from being praised by automatons. He wants us to have free will - that's why He gave it to us. He has free will, we are made in His image, so we have free will. Sin is the byproduct of free will, and that's why He gave us a way out - Jesus.

This is the most textbook atheist argument, and I pity Zig Forums for falling for this bait. This is literally "if God real why bad things?" Screencap this and memorize it. OP, if you aren't a troll, please read literally anything ever. Any basic theologian would debunk this argument as easily as I just did.
The Catholics use frankincense for cleansing, but on Zig Forums we use sage.

someone born in poverty, for example a black, will probably become a criminal for necessity

that's not his choice but his environment

a lion doesn't make a choice, he kills because he needs to eat

People have unlimited choices, sometimes it bites them in the ass but most of the time it leads them to salvation because that is God's plan.

your choices are limited, you will realize it when you enter adulthood

No they aren't. Just because your blind to reality and refuse to accept that you can do anything if you put the spirit and mental willpower into it doesn't mean it's God's fault for making you blind.

Too bad some of the most affluent areas with the highest percentage of black top-earners have higher crime rates than those that are strictly white.
Why can't you accept that God made us differently?

I'll put the spirit and mental willpower into debunking your lies, but now I'm tired of you so bye

why can't you accept that there is no benevolent daddy in the sky? it's like you need a drug in your mind

wow you're a winnie the pooh retard kys

it's god's fault people sin because he allows them to like when he hardened pharaohs heart and made people explicitly do things to get them into trouble

your understanding of god is retarded kys

No. Suffering is a way of weeding out the weak of faith. If you stop believing in God just because bad things happen then into the trash you go.

Life can get really really bad.

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So why is it when politicians goof up you always give liberals the benefit of the doubt but you always find an excuse to poke God in the Eye? Read the Book of Numbers where God nearly wiped out the Israelites for their complaining and murmuring against God, He won't hesitate to do the same with you when your time comes. Repent.

It only seems bad from our perspective. If God made it so that the worst thing that could possibly happen in the material world was breaking a nail, everyone would view breaking a nail like we view the mass rape and slaughter of children because they wouldn't know anything worse. I'm not going to pretend like bad things happening doesn't affect me or that I'm immune to suffering, but to up and say that God doesn't exist because of it is childish.

god doesn't sin and yet he allows mass rape, murder and sin to happen and yet if you allowed it to happen if it was in your power to stop it, it would be a sin. Do you see how irrational believing god is good is? If god is real we are simply play things and there's no way to hold him to anything hens the paranoia of the christian mind, the neurotic fear of a being that is love.

you are a larping christian obviously unless you're retarded,

Sad.

Get this proddy gunk out of here.

it's just the bible, maybe your anger about free will is a personal issue and not a religious stance

I'm not following. People make themselves sin.

...

Because God is not like man. If God were to make man incapable of rape or murder it would take away man's free will which would be a greater crime then to allow such things to happen.

He doesn't. This is theology 101. Were you raised Calvinist or something?

and yet god hardened pharaohs heart and controls everything? God makes people sin, whether that's right or wrong is dubious since he owns everything.

God doesn't make people sin, that's like saying it's God's fault for being a genetic deadend.

How so? Did you even think while typing this?

>He doesn't. This is theology 101. Were you raised Calvinist or something?
no I'm not religious, so tell me what the holy spirit tells you i guess

He doesn't make them sin. He allows them to.

Turning their hearts to stone is so that those specific individuals will never feel his love again, actively punishing them.

So what is the point of telling them to not sin if he will just harden their hearts to make them sin? What part is god or man in this equation is very hard to tell based on the bible for there to be any consistency. A being who controls all things, gives the rain in it's season and knows your heart and acts on reality to his whim, lets people sin, makes them sin in certain occasions, and this is good…because it's god doing it and you're afraid of him.

I don't know how to make it clearer than I already did. I know this sounds like a cop out, and to some extent I guess it is, but I really don't know how to make it more plain. If you still can't understand it I don't know what to tell you on this point. Maybe Lactantius or St. Thomas Aquinas can help you.
newadvent.org/fathers/0703.htm
newadvent.org/summa/1.htm

In the words of St. John of Damascus
These kinds of misunderstanding are why Sola Scriptura is bad.

i was just asking how you can have a concept like sin, something so horrible you will kill people over, so you can have free will and not letting them sin would be a greater "crime"

It's god's fault for making people a genetic deadend, how wouldn't that be true?

If they actually followed it, they'd account for ALL scripture and come to a wiser view like St. John. Instead, they "strain a gnat" and built entire worldviews and systematic theologies out of isolated passages.

i guess you like god prefers to be silent to questions

OP, you don't seem to realize that the world as we observe it is not the world as God created it. God created the world perfect, with man as the intermediary between God and the rest of creation. When man fell and introduced sin and death, the entire creation was disfigured by this sin. If man is not doing well, then the world is not doing well, and therefore, although the consequence of original sin is death, corruption, etc. for us, this also applies to the rest of the world (although we are the only ones guilty of sin, as we are the only ones responsible for this mess).
Children are miscarried all the time. Animals kill each other to eat, and they attack men too. Humans face corruption: aging, illness, death, and genetic defects. Even the seas, the wind, the earth, are all turned against us. This is not God's primary will. God suffers with those who suffers, and is not pleased with the death and suffering of man.

There is no such a thing as "necessity", but there is also no such a thing as "easy choices" in life. Thankfully, we will be judged by the most just Judge, Who knows us better than we know ourselves.

Divine command theory is garbage.

We are Christians. You don't seem to know what we believe about the Cross or about God's judgement.

I don't understand. Do you think God is too strict or God is too lax? You seem to be complaining about both now.

if you honestly don't understand there's no reason to think you represent god in any way

It's not my fault that your complaints are unclear. On one hand you complain that God is too lax, allowing evil to exist and people to suffer, and on another hand you complain that God is too strict, demanding capital punishment for sin. Please expose your point in a concise way instead of spreading it out throughout many replies.

Are you genuinely retarded?

I'm of average intelligence and English is not my first language. I genuinely do not get what exactly your point is.
But if you're not going to discuss this in peace, I'm not going to come and bother you either. Sorry for butting in the discussion.

God is sovereign and man brought sin into the world and corrupted Gods creation. When God renews creation it will be perfected again and the elect will reign with him while those who lost faith in his eternal goodness will be discarded.

oh well the conversation went as follows:
then an user responded:
then i said
then he said
then i said:

then you couldn't understand me as well like i was speaking another language

My point was god simply doesn't make sense, but if god isn't real the earth would make more sense if you look at it that way.

You have that reversed. God allows sin to exist because a greater good arises because of free will. Loving God when you have the option not to love God makes your love far more meaningful than if you had no choice at all. It the total amount of good in creation without free will was 25 then the total amount of good with free will is 100 but with -50 from the evil that occurs.

is anyone on this thread actually a christian

i am not, maybe they're not real, because god is not real

Wheat from shaft, you think you are entitled to anything other then what you are given you are wrong. God is the definer and you are defined

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oh god

I see. Thank you for actually giving a synopsis of the argument so far, as the thread is a bit all over the place.

But God will punish those who are sinful. He may give them a sort of punishment now, to bring them to humility and repentance and to seek His forgiveness, or He may preserve them so that they may be an occasion for the righteous to show charity and love toward those who are persecuted and suffering, while the persecutor's heart is hardened and he is running toward his own eternal punishment. But if God simply manipulated the minds of those who are wicked, therefore preventing them from sinning, then He would also manipulate the minds of those who are righteous to make them love Him, and then He would not be a God worthy of worship or Who could be called "Love".
See the parable of the prodigal son. The father does not keep his sons locked up in a room so that they only do as he wishes. He lets the prodigal son run away with his inheritance, and anxiously waits for him to come back, but to come back remains the son's own choice. And he lets the other son remain in the house, but when the other son becomes jealous of the prodigal son who has returned, that too is his own choice. What you are asking here is why does the father allow his sons to make their own choices, good or bad, with their own consequences, rather than keeping them locked in a room so that their array of choices is limited enough that they would only do what he would want them to.

But as I said earlier, God will punish the wicked. The Cross and the Resurrection are proof of this.
You may be interested in the books of Habakkuk, Proverbs, Job, and Eccleciastes. They address the issue of the relationship between the righteous and the wicked, evil, and God's judgement and providence. I cannot make a recap of them in a Zig Forums post since there is too much to say, though.

Nice arguement

I would go so far as to say that we will all be punished with the Cross, that Christianity is only our way of practicing ourselves for the moment we must bear it and beg for forgiveness. If we do it right, we bear the Cross with Christ. If we do it wrong, we bear the Cross alone. One is a blessing, the other is a punishment. It's all a matter of choice.

I think your math is off since the vast majority of people will be burned for sin or stricken with this worldly punishments then god would still come out with a negative, because he created sin and humans and makes them sin in the first place.

that doesn't answer my complaint about god, how does "freewill is better" constitute an argument? Sin is so horrible by your religion's admission that it warrants death and yet god who is not just a father who might be over sheltering his kids but the supreme power in the universe allow people to do it and not sin at the same time? thus contradicting his own defined nature.

So many people go unpunished for sin as well, none of what you Christians say makes any real sense, you are just as lost as anyone else.

and by unpunished you can't possible predict who will be "brought to humiliation so they convert" who is "just getting away with it" and really why anything happens to anyone, maybe christians should just admit how ignorant they are in matters of life so they invented a great justice that you can't see to explain the chaos of this world

But he didn't create sin, he defined sin, which is what offends him, and is what he sees as a perversion of his intent.
Saying God created sin is saying he is not acting in his own intent, which isn't possible

BTFO

how is that not true? and how does allowing humans to sin not constitute a sin? was he looking the other way in the garden when he was walking around? He knows all and is in all. There is honestly no excuse on his part. But i don't blame god because i know he's not real because there's no proof of him.

Sin isn't a crime against God. Sin is a disease. God used death in the Old Testament to prevent man from accumulating sin and perfecting himself in evil like the demons, and to purify the world from sin, and to give man the incentive to repent (knowing that one's death is near), and also to teach us about the absolute otherness (holiness) of God.
But death is our enemy, and God has destroyed death on the Cross. See St John Chrysostom's Easter homily to see what we think of this: orthodoxchristian.info/pages/sermon.htm

Now sin is removed by Baptism, and those who remain persistent against God will be judged eternally at the final judgement. God is not blind to the suffering and sin of man, and I think I have said earlier that He is among those who suffer, not among those who are mighty. See the parable of the sheeps and the goats, see also the Beatitudes.

there's literally parts of the bible explaining that there are sins against god, god's law establishes what is sin, sin is literally crime, crimes that could have been stopped by an all powerful being instantly and effortlessly but billions of people need to burn in hell instead for no real good reason that we can grasp. Catholic autism can't invalidate this argument.

"allowing humans to sin". God doesn't like when you offend him, he definitely does not tolerate it for long. Just because he made such an outcome of offending God possible doesn't mean it's his fault

since it was in his power to make it not possible it is his fault if he is indeed a supreme being that cannot sin, and if making humans or anything else was a mistake what does this say about god's infallibility and perfect nature?

it is all autism and insanity dude, i'm sorry

Nothing you are saying makes sense. If God did not directly commit the sin how is it his fault, are you trying to say that somehow he emboldens people to sin by making it possible?

ok you got me, time to leave christianity

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Objection 1. It seems that God wills evils. For every good that exists, God wills. But it is a good that evil should exist. For Augustine says (Enchiridion 95): "Although evil in so far as it is evil is not a good, yet it is good that not only good things should exist, but also evil things." Therefore God wills evil things.

Objection 2. Further, Dionysius says (Div. Nom. iv, 23): "Evil would conduce to the perfection of everything," i.e. the universe. And Augustine says (Enchiridion 10,11): "Out of all things is built up the admirable beauty of the universe, wherein even that which is called evil, properly ordered and disposed, commends the good more evidently in that good is more pleasing and praiseworthy when contrasted with evil." But God wills all that appertains to the perfection and beauty of the universe, for this is what God desires above all things in His creatures. Therefore God wills evil.

Objection 3. Further, that evil should exist, and should not exist, are contradictory opposites. But God does not will that evil should not exist; otherwise, since various evils do exist, God's will would not always be fulfilled. Therefore God wills that evil should exist.

On the contrary, Augustine says (Qq. 83,3): "No wise man is the cause of another man becoming worse. Now God surpasses all men in wisdom. Much less therefore is God the cause of man becoming worse; and when He is said to be the cause of a thing, He is said to will it." Therefore it is not by God's will that man becomes worse. Now it is clear that every evil makes a thing worse. Therefore God wills not evil things.

I answer that, Since the ratio of good is the ratio of appetibility, as said before (I:5:1), and since evil is opposed to good, it is impossible that any evil, as such, should be sought for by the appetite, either natural, or animal, or by the intellectual appetite which is the will. Nevertheless evil may be sought accidentally, so far as it accompanies a good, as appears in each of the appetites. For a natural agent intends not privation or corruption, but the form to which is annexed the privation of some other form, and the generation of one thing, which implies the corruption of another. Also when a lion kills a stag, his object is food, to obtain which the killing of the animal is only the means. Similarly the fornicator has merely pleasure for his object, and the deformity of sin is only an accompaniment. Now the evil that accompanies one good, is the privation of another good. Never therefore would evil be sought after, not even accidentally, unless the good that accompanies the evil were more desired than the good of which the evil is the privation. Now God wills no good more than He wills His own goodness; yet He wills one good more than another. Hence He in no way wills the evil of sin, which is the privation of right order towards the divine good. The evil of natural defect, or of punishment, He does will, by willing the good to which such evils are attached. Thus in willing justice He wills punishment; and in willing the preservation of the natural order, He wills some things to be naturally corrupted.

Reply to Objection 1. Some have said that although God does not will evil, yet He wills that evil should be or be done, because, although evil is not a good, yet it is good that evil should be or be done. This they said because things evil in themselves are ordered to some good end; and this order they thought was expressed in the words "that evil should be or be done." This, however, is not correct; since evil is not of itself ordered to good, but accidentally. For it is beside the intention of the sinner, that any good should follow from his sin; as it was beside the intention of tyrants that the patience of the martyrs should shine forth from all their persecutions. It cannot therefore be said that such an ordering to good is implied in the statement that it is a good thing that evil should be or be done, since nothing is judged of by that which appertains to it accidentally, but by that which belongs to it essentially.

Reply to Objection 2. Evil does not operate towards the perfection and beauty of the universe, except accidentally, as said above (Reply to Objection 1). Therefore Dionysius in saying that "evil would conduce to the perfection of the universe," draws a conclusion by reduction to an absurdity.

Reply to Objection 3. The statements that evil exists, and that evil exists not, are opposed as contradictories; yet the statements that anyone wills evil to exist and that he wills it not to be, are not so opposed; since either is affirmative. God therefore neither wills evil to be done, nor wills it not to be done, but wills to permit evil to be done; and this is a good.