I was arguing with a nontheist today about the presence of things such as sickness in the world. I replied that tribulations build patience, and that things like this humble us and tedt our faith.
However, this sparked a tangent in which he asked why God had to test things if he was truly omniscent. I said that God can comprehend all things that was, are, and will be, as well as everything that could have been or may be, knowing every outcome to the infinite possible choices we are faced with; so it is not a test of God's knowledge but testing us, as we are endowed with free will.
He then argued that God's omniscience would mean that our free will wasn't actually free, and that he was responsible for our faults since he was our creator who knew the things we would do wrong. My response was that, first, the ability of God to know every possible outcome does not prevent us from choosing to do wrong, nor does it mean that God is at fault for our wrongdoings. Additionally, I noted that the entire argument hinged on the idea that we comprehend reality on the level of God (since the full extent of God is knowable to us) and not in the severely limited capacity of our perception. I don't think he was satisfied with this answer though. I'm knew to debating about theology with people, how would you guys have gone about it? How would you explain that God knows everything yet we are still capable of free will?
Sorry for a couple of typos, phone posting here. Also, feel free to correct any theological mistakes I made, I'm learning and greatly appreciate constructive criticism.
Your friend is clever. He's right. Omniscience in the way it's usually articulated would he a contradiction with free will.
The answer lies in correcting the doctrine of omniscience. Future events simply don't exist, so it's no compromise on omniscience that he doesn't know them. Why else would he test people in the Bible, like your friend points out? Why would Moses reason with God, and God change his mind? God exists in time. He knows the past and present exhaustively. He knows the systems perfectly, including our thoughts and intentions, so he knows what's coming. He also knows what He will do in the future because nobody can stop Him, and he can't lie or break his promises.
What he doesn't know is what I'm going to choose to eat next week. If I knew what I intended, and he knew nothing was going to stop me, he would know that. If he knew that he didn't want me to have a turkey sandwich, he has all the power of the universe to stop me, so he would know I would NOT have a turkey sandwich.
Ok, I'm ready for everybody's hostile non-arguments and platitudes to be thrown my way.
Jason Young
Knowing is not the same as casualty, and the existence of evil is not solely for the testing/punishment of man, but is also a consequence of both free will and a metaphysical separation from God. God knows all things, but knowing, and even causing, are not equivalent to dictating. There is no direct equivalent for man, as man can only know very few things and does not control as God does, but suffice to say that to know the future does not dictate it, rather understand the order of events. God exists outside of time, He is not waiting to see what happens to us, He already knows all past and future with equal familiarity, as if both were somehow present to us. He did not force anyone to do anything, there is forever the choice to do whatever you may, proven by your own ability to do whatever you may, it is self-evident by your own capacity. Just because God knows the consequence, does not exempt him from the necessity of giving the cause to give that consequence; in simpler terms, God knows the outcome of the test, but He still has to give the test so that we may actually do our action, otherwise we would never have been given a chance. As for the problem of evil, it arises from primarily from free will. If man were not capable of disobedience there would be no love, just mechanical succession of dictated functions. Even ignoring this, metaphysically evil must exist. Evil is not a property, but rather a lack of a property which is goodness, which is derivative of God. All things that are not God must be separate from God, obviously; but this means a separation from what is the essence of goodness. And just as a separation from the essence of a truth means drifting into realms of non-universal truth. The further we are from God, the further we must be from goodness, for God is good and goodness itself (not to make God out to be merely a personification of properties, but the divine spirit is the basis of such properties as goodness as well as being God.) It must hold that man must be in sin, for if nothing is perfect save for God, therefore there is no alternative but for sin to exist and for man to partake in it.
That's wrong as I understand, God knows all things, even what you're going to eat next week. God exists outside of time. You can dismiss that in a platitude, but I understand the theology is quite clear. If God was subject to time and not truly omniscient, then He is not God, because that means he is not universal and infinity but ever-expanding in knowledge with time.
Jacob Jackson
He's not right, knowledge of the outcome is not the same with actively changing the outcome.
You do not correct doctrine, much less God.
wut
God exists outside of time, time is a creation.
Jeremiah Torres
I've seen this comic before, and it is a simplification because people do not comprehend divine simplicity. God is not merely an outside observer, nor is He only the cause of Being, He is Being. I AM the I AM.
Carter Rodriguez
Wrong on every levels. It's even basic theology. God is not even "outside time" it has no effect on Him at all, He *IS* even before time was created : "Before Abraham Was, I am"
Of course God took a human form with Jesus Christ, but that's still only one person of the trinity… All these discussions about God's omniscience consider Him as if he had a human mind and all the apparent contradictions that would implies : "Wtf, how can a all loving God create hell and evil people in the first place?" "Why didn't God know Adam and Eve would sin, etc ,etc"*
Maybe we should just admit that some things are beyond our comprehension
Excellent post
Jeremiah Cook
When did he create it?
Easton Baker
When Time was created.
Caleb Howard
In the Beginning. There is no before, but outside of the dimension of time, is (there is no proper word to describe this state of being, so I use was) formless nothing and God created everything from that. This is something that Augustine in Confessions explains is essentially impossible for us to understand, it is a concept so ingrained into another dimension beyond human comprehension, that it simply must be left as a mystery of the faith. There was no time before time, just as there was nothing (literally, no matter or thing, as God is spirit) before God made everything.
Sebastian King
which goes back into the entire concept of God, as God. if God is subject to Time, or preceded by infinite being/time, He is de-facto not God.
Charles Perry
Exactly. God must exist beyond time and control it, existing in all places of time and understanding of all events within time. Therefore, yes, God knows what kind of sandwich you will eat next week, he knows how you will be judged, but he must test you so you have the chance to be judged in the first place (our first place, that is).
Jonathan Cox
At t=0
Kayden Gonzalez
Thanks for all the replies guys, I'm at work right now but I'll try and read through all of them later.
Josiah Cruz
No, it’s free will that’s wrong.
Landon Watson
"Before Abraham was, I am" is a proof of God's being in time. Did time start with Abram?
Jason Perez
That's not a proof in the slightest. God exists outside of and controls time, he therefore exists before, after, during, and beyond Abraham's time-frame. Nothing about that statement implies God exists within time, and that is blatant cherry-picking. If God is subject to time, God is not God. It's that simple.
Jaxson Martinez
That's a lot of presuppositions my guy. Can you prove them? support:
Owen Morris
Was creating time the result of a decision God made? If so, how could he decide to create time before creating it, if 'before' didn't exist, since there was no time?
Owen Taylor
Metaphysically, God must exist outside of time, outside of all things. If there is anything above God or more infinite or eternal than He, then He is not God, for there is something greater. God must be the eternal creator of ALL things, including time, else he is not God, by definition. And even if He were somehow still a creator of things except time, He would be a liar, for he has said he is creator of all things. But since we know God cannot be a liar since God is good and goodness, and lying is objectively sinful, then He must be telling truth, and He must exist outside of time. Next note the language of Genesis 1:1, where it says "In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth" implying that before the beginning, God already was. Therefore God must exist at least before time, but what is before time except outside of time entirely. And if He is outside of time, it must be that He is free to move about time, but since God does not much but everywhere always, it must be that He is in all periods of time. These aren't really presuppositions, these seem to just be the fundamentals of what God is and must be.
I don't know. I already said before that thinking about outside of time (or before, if you like) is practically impossible, it's thinking outside a dimension we don't comprehend.
