Do you think enforcing christianity (or any other religion) unchristian or wrong? I´d like to hear what you think...

He won't.
Not enough larp game.

Church and state never works.
If you're honest and reasonable in your preaching, you'll attract reasonable, honest people. Idiots you do not need, lest you'd argue that faith needs numbers by any means.

Did I speak against preaching? No, in fact I support preaching but don't endorse forced conversion.

Enforcing a religion into others do more harm than good, you can look at it using the baltics as a example, and the enourmous percentage of atheist/paganism in that region.

You spoke the standard catholic view that salvation is possible without faith in Jesus, which can't come without hearing and hearing without a preacher. I'm pointing out how the Bible is in conflict with the doctrine of invincible ignorance.

Because libertarianism isn't christian, just one more of those illuminist ideologies that sprung up in the enlightnement. Muh statism isn't compatible with christianity, this is why america was a mistake, along with separation of church and state and secularism, which this poster also endorses.

standing up to traditional christendom is larp now, wow. Americanism is heresy.

Jesus wasn't apolitical. Politics are an implementation of ideology, and no ideology is more important than Christianity. Christianity should be behind every single political decision. Jesus preached to everyone, repeated how he is the way and the life. Those who do not want to hear deserve damnation and should be rebuked.

The pagans didn't want to hear, yet endless apologists kept hammering them with the truth and they converted, because luckily christians back then weren't lukewarm like you, hypocrites that refuse to practise Christianity, leaving it as something personal and secret that has no repercussion in life, or society.

Ok, it seems that you are just outright insane. Ignore the pearls I threw at you.

mere assertion
prove "libertarianism isn't christian"

Let me show you how much separation of church and state works

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Have more enlightened, libertarian separation of Church and state

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What tradition?
To force people to bend the knee to your pseudo fascism?
You honestly think religious people are less succeptible to corruption of power?
You honestly think you'd be able to stand where the saints did?
Good luck with that. You're going to ruin Christianity even more if that day ever comes, cowboy. Read your Bible and learn to preach with reason and faith instead of stupid power mongering nonsense hiding under dead traditions that never worked in the first place.

you're conflating secular in the government sense with secularism as a moral philosophy

Go to Saudi Arabia or Iran and see where your fantasy will lead, big crusader man.
inb4 what doesn't works with islam will work with Christianity because who cares about medieval history

More enlightened, democratic, libertarian separation of Church and State

Those two are one and the same, the removal of Christianity as the moral basis, reducing laws and behaviour to pure hedonism, both based on pleasure. St Augustine already rebuked your libertarian monstrosity.

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Because as i far as i know, libertarianism is an individualistic ideology that asserts that "everything is okay if you don't harm others", wants Just one more of those man-made earthly ideologies, with a hatred of state and authority, when the bible clearly teaches to respect authority and honor the king.

To protect our religion agaisnt mockery and slander, the removal of religious education, and the destruction of religious imagery, to be for public religiosity and a truly christian culture. Secularism destroy all of this, religious holidays are forbidden in places like France, "homophobia" laws are being implemented in my country, pride parades are all over the place, leftist education brainwash students, and porn destroys our youth.

You do not belong ina christian forum if you compare Christianity to Islam.

Also, have moire enlightened secularism.

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if you're not willing to correct a category error I think we're done.
As a point of evidence just look at the historical fact of the flourishing of Christianity in the history of the United States, especially as compared to the rest of the western nations, despite the US's foundation with explicit constitutional restrictions on the state's power regarding religion.

If you allow secularism in your government, subversives will attack our culture, our laws, our ways of life, our religion, and they have a free pass to doing so, "because everything is relative man, and this is a free country maaan". Church and state has it's flaws, but it's waaaay better than "secular" ( read: subversive) government

We were done the moment you tried to use the US as some kind of example of virtue

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And don't worry, I have hundreds of "points of evidence" that show the great, flourishing fruits of your great separation of Church and State

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the population may even be christian at some point ( even though most people were secular, and the supposed "christian 50's were rare moments in the history of america ) the government is absolutely rotten! The US is a jewish colony because of it's secularism, with abortion, contraception, gay laws that never would have gotten there in the first place. It's time for us christians to free ourselves from the french revolution and americanism, and all of their fruits.

Here's a consistent argument that secular moral philosophy follows from secular government. In response I would just say that it doesn't necessarily flow, and again you can look to the dominance of evangelicalism the US which explicitly reject relativism

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Yes, that was not the point i was making. The point is: Secular government is babylon to christians, because they take God out of our laws, of our streets and buildings, and push for anti-christians laws…and secularism also does take away from religious sentiment because it destroy any public religious confession, and it also destroy religious monuments like secular france here:>>780315. Religion becomes a private thing, when christ is supposed to be king over culture, society, government, not only individual.

This isn't evidence. These are pol tier meme caps that aren't even relevant to the argument.
Let me ask you this, do you honestly believe that if you'd have a government run by the Church, these things would stop?
The government has only one tool, power over others, it can only justify itself by its force.
You put the Church in that spot, the Church will only wither into another dictatorship because that's just how power works in a singular governing institution basis.
Take the Church away from government and its free from the bindings of power. It then has the freedom to spread the word of truth in Christ and convince society to do better and set itself as an example.

You're literally just spewing sensibilities to justify your hatred for what you don't understand.

Are you serious? Have you not read European history?
You're living in the modern age my friend. Stop living your power fantasy of the past and go do something instead of giving power to your church which may actually be as suceptible to corruption as anyone else.
Christ gave us the task of preaching the gospel, not to become caesars.

You're still in the wrong framework. Governments informed by secular moral philosophy oppress Christians just like you say, but that's not what secular government means in legal terms.

And how is france today my guy

They're neither saved or perished. In Eastern Church they have the belief that a third place exists like the Bosom of Abraham. In Catholicism they believe that while belief in Christ is necessary for salvation and there's no salvation outside it, they also consider the Church to be a universal society that encompasses all of mankind, even those who don't explicitly believe in God or misunderstand Him. Because that's the definition of Catholic.

No, politics are literally governance, control, and power. Philosophy and art are ideas too, but are they politics? You can't control love and charity. You can "convert" the pagans, but what's the point if it caused them to die with a vengeful heart? What's the use of being religious when you have no faith and love? Religion is a very surface level outer appearance.

Here's one thing You can ban immodesty, but sins can never be banned.

Destroyed because of liberals like you :^)

But that's what happens in REALITY everywhere, including my country.

You are mixing things up, we aren't advocating for a theocracy per se, we are advocating for a state with a religious affiliation and confession. With this these countries would not pass anti-christian laws..Seperation of church and state is a liberal (anti-christian) concept..and is not even the root of this evil, liberalism and enlightnement is the root.

Ah yes, reality isn't a meme, facts are just some irrelevant thing, unlike your lolbertarian nonsense.

If we had a govvernment run by the Church, then these things would be punished , because Christianity would be the official force behind every law. It is only in the secular world, where hedonism is the only law, that there prophanities and perversions are allowed.

All your nonsense about how "the Church will become ebil!" is retarded nonsense with no grounds on reality. the years in which the Church had an important say in politics allowed Christianity to flourish.

Free from the bindings of power… I guess we should also stop evangelising, so that we are free from the power of apologetics and can just spend our lives being apathic retards that have the freedom to speak to ourselves.

Do not tell others about "convincing society" when you want to remove Christianity from society. I'm literally just spewing facts to show how, on the one hand, there is your lolbertarian retardation, and on the other hand, reality.

You hate these things because they show the actual consequences of everything you say, reality islike poison to you, snake. All your cheap talk crumbles when someone shows the fruit of your lies. -You- are the corruption, hypocrite snake.

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Lol no, everyone will push their beliefs in one way or another. Might as well fight those degenerates by burning them on the stakes.

I'd rather have lukewarms,hypocrites, and frauds than the people we have now.

I'm not even going to.
Good luck in your life, bud.

To what extent does this affiliation go? Because anons like clearly want a theocracy so he could be the new Hitler but with the Pope's hat.
It's literally the established Catholic practice since they know from their own history what happens when you give too much power to a priest.
That's a narrow minded way of thought, I'm sorry.
You'll have to deal with both and using force won't cut it. The only real way here is the re-evangelise the Church itself and leave the cesspool of government to its own apparatus. The idea of having a Church with a religious affinity is good, but the affinity must be strong and fair. Screeching idiocy will only put us into something the likes of Islam and communism.

No, politics are what those things are used for, which is something even a child understands, you brainlet. Politics implement philosophy among other things. Art has nothing to do with ideology, but with beauty. You can control punishments for what destroys the soul, just like you can punish what destroys the body. After all, you would say, "we shouldn't punish murderers, after all, we can't control love!".

The point of the death sentence is to avoid the scandal to others, as explained by St thomas newadvent.org/summa/3011.htm#article3

You can ban sins you humongous retards. We ban murder, and robbery, and many other things. Hypocrites like you have no problems banning what interrupts pleasure, but always cry in horror when someone wants to ban perversion and what destroys the soul. The cause is very clear: you only want to ban what damages you, and things against Christ do not damage you, because you probably aren't Christian at all.

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Instead of wishing luck to others, rather wish a brain and a bit of decency to yourself.

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Can I wish those for you?

Do not wish for others what you do not have yourself, lolbertarian retard.

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Hitler man BAD!
LITERALLY HITLER

Do you?

Hitler was a bad man, yes. good job.

Lol go back to the sewer where you came in?

Convince me I'm wrong without insults and I'll do the exact same to you.

OY VEEEEEEY don't you forget to die for Israel fellow epic libertarians

Kek. As for enforcing Christianity? No, I don't believe that's wrong. While it would be hard times full of misery and death, more souls would ultimately be saved than if we were to continue sitting idly by and allow secular society to corrupt every one of us. Also, just know that more violence wouldn't have to occur if our Christian societies remained authoritarian in the first place.

The separation of Church and State is what first led to me questioning my previous Baptist beliefs.
The sooner it collapses, the better. Chances are, the United States will be on par with modern-day Brazil within the next century.

HITLER MAN BAD :-|

Why do you conduct yourselves like this?

What about World War 1?

So, besides drowning the thread in retarded pictures, does user actually have a good, historically-based framework for the relation between Church and State, that will minimize retarded populism, make sure it doesn't turn in Saudi sectarianism, and prevent masking of political incompetence under a veneer of "keeping society safe from X"?

I'm sorry. Hitler is obviously a bad guy because the media told us so and we should give our lives to Israel because the government told us so.

Were the countries involved all united in their Catholic faith, or did they come from various strains of Protestantism that, at its very root, is divisive?

That or because Hitler was a drug addicted psychopath who betrayed his Christian nation and gave it to neopagans and literally threw it into another global war for his own glory.
And yeah, Isarel is a mess, but guess what, it's still the only thing resembling the western world in the cesspool that is the middle east. Here's something else, considering how diverse and small Isarel is, it's literally a miracle how conservative it manages to stay.

What the war about religion?

Unlike Aquinas who lived among the illiterates, this is the age of mass communication. You can kill people, but their message can't be killed. Even before mass communication existed, Jesus was able to use his disciples to spread His message. You want to see the false prophets you kill rise to messianic status and your religion be demonized for killing him?

I'm sorry, oh, my lord. I forgot we, the cattle, are not allowed to speak, and even less about the bad goy transexual drug addict with one testicle who turned your grandparents into soap lampshades.

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No, he was bad for, among other things, instituting Aktion T4, invading central Europe, all the things he is accused in Mit brennender Sorge, and the criticism leveled by Bekennende Kirche, whom he forced underground for not instituting political policies in the protestant churches.

You can speak all you want, but there's just enough propaganda about him o the right that there is on the left. You'll grow out of Hitler, trust me.

We know pretty well the message of many people who were killed. None of them has "messianic status", so spare me that nonsense, which is only used to make scandal untouchable.

Yes, my lord, I will grow out of the bad goyim and understand that I am only cattle to the chosen ones.

After all, that is one of the many wonders of the secular, libertarian world.

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Something about this doesn't seem right. Sounds more Judeo-Christian than Christian.

His understanding of God is almost equal to that of Muslims who believe in Syariah Law.

How about Hitler, Martin Luther King, JFK, Malcolm X, and Che Guevara? They're messiahs for their followers. Their prosecution only gave them stronger public image.

Lol

True true he was a drug addicted psychopath. Literally the epitome of evil and Israel is good because it's obviously conservative. Thankyou for being you.

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You guys okay?

Those people were already leaders before their death, idiot.

And some of them are precisely slandered beyond imagination because they we3re silenced. So yes, as you can see, killing someone does silence the person. It doesn't amtter how popular that person is, he will not be saying anything more.

user just solved public discourse and theological debates!

Yeah, killing the apostles totally silenced the gospel.

A publically catholic state that defends christian laws, traditions, buildings and our religion from mockery and slander.
for centuries this was not the cause, before america and the french revolution
certainly a part of the problem. And you advocate for these ideals, these ideals which were created to undermine our society, you bow down to modernity and our enemies.
i agree partially, society and the church needs to christianize first, but the union of church and state helps our cause, in ways i already mentioned.

as long as I have to pay my tax dollars to Israel and kill women and children for them. I am.

I don't know why you insist on believing masonic liberal ideals and french revolutionary thought.

Yeah, but we had rules to deal with it properly.
You should read on those.

Byzantine symphonia, Inquisitorial legal procedures, ecclesiastical courts, greek treaties on the subject, etc.

There is even a debate in the Brothers Karamazov about your union.

Read on them first.

But that's what in general a good law system is supposed to do. What about the case for Islam and Budhism? Should Christians be a superior group than them?
Yeah, that's the point. By then the Church understood it's too much for them and that they wouldn't be able to cope with politics. Neither were they able to do that in the first place.
You can't undermine a society that's steadfast in reason. What I advocate is for the Church to establish itself from sex scandals, power abuse and iffy banking deals before it can even consider running a nation.
But it doesn't. The early RCC has all the power it could have ever dreamed for a long time and it still didn't manage. And that was medieval times. In the modern world it has no chance to do it.

So don't pay taxes.
But hey, I bet when Hitler built concentration camps for people, and not only for Jews mind you, and provoked war on lies, I bet it was all justified.

Do you think all religions are equal?
The separation of church and state was something forced down upon, not something consensual..what are you talking about?
I never said the church should run the nation..i only said the state should have a state religion to protect and to represent..i'm not talking about clergy..but of ideals, traditions, laws and so on.
again, not clergy, but the state defending the ideals of the church, such as laws against infanticide, lgbt propaganda..and so on.

alright, but i won't change my mind anyway. Separation of church and state is an idea created by non-christians, to undermine and destroy us. I reject the enlightnement and all of it's children.

Well, you said it yourself.

Yes, i'm brazilian and won't be bowing down to positivists that enforced securalism on us. My country has suffered enough at the hands of liberals.

How can he do that if there's 1 billion Jews taking all the place? Not pay taxes? Lol it's my responsibility for israel

I think they should be treated equally unless they're breaking the established law of order. Islam maybe not so much, but Budhism would fall into a equal fitting with Christianity.
It had to be consensual. How come it's the established way of the modern Church? Orthodoxy never needed government much and protestants outright abhor it. Why should the Catholicism need it besides for a grab of power?
But that's an oxymoron.
See, these three aren't mutually exclusive though, so it would be very hard to establish each different country under a single denomination of a religion.
user, countries that have all that degeneracy STILL HAVE A CHURCH. In Sweden the church has more power than most other churches in their own countries. And guess what, the church there is as foul and messed up and Sweden's government.

Flawless logic. You got me.

>think they should be treated equally unless they're breaking the established law of order. Islam maybe not so much, but Budhism would fall into a equal fitting with Christianity.
See, this is the problem with liberalism, relativism of religion, when our religion is superior and the founding base ( at least in my country ) of our nation
It was forced upon my country, Spain, Portugal, France..
Because the church yelded to modernity
No. I'm advocating for a confessional state..
I agree. Confessional state is not enough. These ideals should truly lived in a society and the institutions. That's why society needs to be christianized first. Also, the churches of england, sweden, etc are cucked and emasculated. The church needs to be reformed and a great purge needs to happen, but the secular state is a monstrosity.
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Americanism_(heresy)

I think we're done here. This discussion is of no use and won't lead to nowhere. Goodbye.

You're still wrong.
Your country, Spain, is one of the most religious countries in the world.
Still a leftist cesspool.
Think, man.

I'm Brazilian. Spain is secular and even it's own king is trying to secularize it even more. Secularism was imposed upon my upon my people, a people once catholic. Despite all of their efforts, catholic culture still hangs on.
I've seen the fruits of secularism myself. Don't reply, i won't bother to respond. You can keep secular america to yourself, i will pray that Brazil becomes an catholic empire again, free of secularism, positivism, socialism and liberalism. Goodbye.

Christians aren't zealots.

Did your government close down churches, burn bibles, and ban religious books? No? Then it's your people's own fault for abandoning their faith.

I'm not American.
And I'm not pro secularism, but it's just the reality of things. If you really, honestly want to impose true Christian values on a country, you need to work on the Church itself as the foundation. And the end goal must not be to take ANY legislative power since that's Sisyphu's Stone that'll wreck everything over and over again.

Public policy or good ideas don't work on "i hate group X".
It's something both you, and the austrian economics fags, and the fedoras, and commies, and neo-nazis, and every other group needs to learn.

Get it in that thick skull of yours(we've talked before, and i've shown you that stuff like secularism predates the Enlightenment) that you need to study history and statecraft before calling for radical ideas based on some vague, mistaken idea of how you believe stuff worked in the past, and not your only argument being "But American liberals!"

Howdy Hueanon. Not that orginal user, just a different burger. I just wanted to say I feel your sentiment and I also wish the Catholic Empire of Brazil would rise once again. I like Bolsonaro but he is an Evangelical so I don't 100% trust him like I don't 100% trust Trump.
Maybe one day Brazil will be blessed once again with a monarch that has the courage to stand up agianst the modern world. If only.

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A Christian society comes naturally, from actual Christian people. The laws are secondary, but nice to have. They should already be written on people's hearts though.

Forced conversion is wrong, wrong, wrong. It would be good if the Christian presence is so overwhelming that people couldn't help but be influenced by the Church in the culture, but this doesn't require converting people with force.

Good try but americanism is still heresy

Also:
"The concept of separating church and state is often credited to the writings of English philosopher John Locke (1632–1704).[13] According to his principle of the social contract, Locke argued that the government lacked authority in the realm of individual conscience, as this was something rational people could not cede to the government for it or others to control. For Locke, this created a natural right in the liberty of conscience, which he argued must therefore remain protected from any government authority. These views on religious tolerance and the importance of individual conscience, along with his social contract, became particularly influential in the American colonies and the drafting of the United States Constitution.[14]

At the same period of the 17th century, Pierre Bayle and some fideists were forerunners of the separation of Church and State, maintaining that faith was independent of reason.[15][16] During the 18th century, the ideas of Locke and Bayle, in particular the separation of Church and State, became more common, promoted by the philosophers of the Age of Enlightenment. Montesquieu already wrote in 1721 about religious tolerance and a degree of separation between religion and government.[17] Voltaire defended some level of separation but ultimately subordinated the Church to the needs of the State[18] while Denis Diderot, for instance, was a partisan of a strict separation of Church and State, saying "the distance between the throne and the altar can never be too great".[19]
No catholic predesessor of separation of church and state