Transgender people and materialism

Is transgenderism in conflict with materialism? Transgender people and activists seem to imply that trans people are born with "female or male souls" in the opposite gendered body. To say that body is just a vessel for the soul sounds like Idealism to me. How can maleness/femaleness be separated from their material parts? Likewise,people who say that "gender is a social construct" are in conflict with people who say that being transgender is a legitimate phenomenon. How can gender be socially constructed (not exist) but also be this essential thing for transgender people?

What even is gender? Is your gender just the role you play in society? the way you dress? So transgender people have a yearning to dress a certain way and have certain jobs, and that feeling in built into them?

This all sounds like idealistic, anti-marxist bullshit to me, unless im mistaken. Of course, trans people can do what they want, no one should impede them from expressing themselves however they feel, but I don't see how it's compatible in any way with materialism.

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Other urls found in this thread:

paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/12/12/genders-or-sex-stereotypes-part-1/
youtube.com/watch?v=-pxxBQm114k
britannica.com/topic/Federal-Reserve-System
en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Warburg
youtube.com/watch?v=ySVGAS9JkPY
sci.libgen.pw/item/adv/5b2fdbd73a044636b8195fdb
twitter.com/SFWRedditImages

There's no evidence of "male" vs. "female" brains.

That's not what transgender activists and people say, though. They seem to be substance dualists, which is 100% anti marxist.

Nobody's goin'ta be transitionin' till ol' Scotty gets the transporter fixed.

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There are male and female traits. Masculinity and femininity. For whatever reason some people act this way or that way, and it all doesn't really matter any more than what one dresses like.

Oh yeah. I totally agree.

It’s stupid and I think trannies are deluding themselves but if someone really wants to live as the other sex, go ahead

but if gender is a social construct there isn't, there are just traits.

Again how can someone be born with the urge to embody one of sets of traits, to the point where they contemplate and sometimes go thorough with suicide if others don't believe they embody those traits?

What makes a particular trait "male" or "female"?

Most trannies are NPDs or BPDs. Look it up.

hormones, lack of hormones, mental illness, retardation, take your pick

men don't wear a dress 'cause you can't do manly things too well in a dress

Hormones determine whether or not you want to wear thigh highs dresses? Not likely.
This is a possible explanation, but again Transgender activists deny that being transgender is a mental illness
Maybe, I don't think so, though.

An anorexics deny being too thin

What makes a man want to do manly things?

Testosterone

What is manly? This obviously varies from place to place and time to time

Intensive labour

Anyone who believes "muh brain doesn't match muh body" is mentally ill.

You think men don't have feelings?
I'm a man and have feelings.
And according to feminism that's alright.

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sex hormones effect brain development though

You're hardly going to send your army of men to war in a dress or have them go hunting in one

Ok we've done it then! We've saved materialism. Now how do we break it to the transgender people without getting banned from every subreddit?

Borderline or Bipolar?

Borderline.

Genders are a spook and being transexual is a mental illness. That being said though, it isn't that serious of an illness and people should be allowed to believe and have a transition to their preferred gender if it'll make their lives better. It is their decision after all, nobody should control what they can or can't do.

This is a dumb argument. Obviously certain forms of clothing would be less effective in these situations. This still doesn’t define what is and what is not “manly”. The only things I can think about is combat and this

And other stereotypical nuances of high test

and how 'bout Pragmatism = masculine

pragmatism is putting chewing gum on a leaky pipe.
Materialism is replacing the pipe.

I don't think transgenderism has anything to do with souls. I mean, some might genuinely believe that, but even if a majority did, I wouldn't consider that a core facet of transgenderism. To see if transgenderism is in conflict with materialism, first try and understand transgenderism from a materialist perspective. I'm no marxist magician, but this is my warm take.
Ultimately transgender people are just humans who's sexual development is directed in one way (male/female, impregnation/childbirth) but who desire to be the opposite sex.
This is a matter of personal opinion, a specific person's desire and level of comfort with the way they physically developed, and I see no conflict here. There is, in my opinion, reason to be skeptical of the source of people's feelings of gender dysphoria, but that hasn't to do with transgenderism in and of itself.

Doesn't have to be gum

I forgot OP said smthn about materialism anyway

So gender isn't a social construct. We have a pre-disposition to wanted to be viewed a certain way by others (as masculine/feminine), masculinity and femininity are usually embodied by males and females respectively, but transgender people feel like they don't align with the traits that are associated with their sex.

Gender is identical in use to Genre, same root and literally the same word in French
You are either born XY chromosomes or XX chromosomes, the only gender trannies are switching is penis to no penis

So what are you guys going to be liberal or conservative cause you can't be both.

Essence theory is not the only theory of what transgenderism is.
It seems weird to discount the reality of tramsgenderism because of one stupid anti-materialist theory.
Maybe read some of the scientific literature on the subject? I don't feel like an image board is the best place to have a discussion like this.

this is a metaphysical discussion.

???

What is then?

Yeah probably unrelated to anything you've said, still good to get it in the thread

t. Amerimutt

Sorry, this is the part I didn't understand.

gender is the socialization of reproductive roles in society. the masculine or femininity of something depends on how desirable that trait is by the opposite and this was determined when humans were evolving and is being argued against today as that the traits desirable are no longer acceptable and should be changed

I'm active in an anarchist group with a lot of MtFs and I see this all the time.

how over represented are transgender people
at IRL anarchist groups? Does it match how many there are on twitter?

The names we gave them.

There are social and physical constructs to sex, gender, and gender roles.
Are you a hard determinist though? Some people are saddened by their lot in life and they wish to be something other. Some obsess over it to such an unhealthy degree that they become suicidal. A chemical imbalance and a wrong frame of mind will do that to you.

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IRL anarchists, yes. About 2/3rds of our "women" are MTFs, there's like 3 biofemales and 9 MTF or "genderqueer" dudes.

Things NPC's say
just kill yourself you're hopeless

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Cute village.

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Is that a midget jew in your pic?

They have Jews in Nepal?

It is not in conflict with materialism. Gender identity isn't linked to some immaterial soul.
People are trans because they experience themselves as their gender identity, this is possibly to do with hormones, epigenetics etc.
It is not considered a metal illness by itself by major bodies as it does not constitute a harmful disorder or conflict in individuals, it is usually a conflict between their identity and the identity society imposes. There is gender dysphoria which has been shown to be treated well by allowing them to transition
I admit I can't empathise with their gender dysphoria and can't understand it, but I think because non-conforming gender identity is experienced by these people and has existed throughout history that it is genuine

Gender being a social construct is not in total opposition to the phenomenon of being transgender. The meaning of social construct is to realise that the categories are largely created by society (some societies, eg some native american, didn't categorise gender identity as a binary).
Part of being transgender is having a gender identity that won't fit the category society has placed.
To present as their gender identity they may want to fit the socially constructed idea of gender (eg dresses, makeup) to have their identity recognised.

There is no inherent contradiction between gender identity and materialism as it is a phenomenon people genuinely experience.
The experience of transgender people is largely the conflict with society's imposition of a fixed gender binary which ties sex to identity

Gender identity can be understood without resorting to immaterial and idealist ideas as it is a consequence of the world around it.

This is analogous to sexuality, it is part of an identity and an experience but it cannot be dismissed as being immaterial, to do so is to dismiss human identity and experience.

If you have a dick and shoot cum into things, that is a male trait. If you have tits and squirt milk into mouths, that is a female trait.

t. Tranny

What is the point of trannys? What purpose do they serve?

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Literally nothing. Showing how personality isn't tied to biological sex can be explained by garden-variety gender-non-conforming people.

what is it about hormones and genes that makes transwomen want to wear dresses and have long hair?

also you use the native americans of an example of a society that had transgender people without mentioning that their way of explaining it was highly highly highly spooky.

A discussion I had in the unpopular opinions thread regarding materialism and transgenderism

I still maintain gender is nebulous "spooky" shit and only sex can really be shown. The only real argument that came from the discussion was that it may not be practical for people to declare and live as such without dealing with severe societal repercussions.

If any of you think that gender is not an objective social formation, you're nutters. Literally read Cockshott.

Cockshott is unironically TERF gang and argues gender doesn't exist.
paulcockshott.wordpress.com/2017/12/12/genders-or-sex-stereotypes-part-1/

For one, there should be more inquiry on the gender dysphoria as such, as there are various control groups like people who transitioned, people who did not, people who retransitioned. And their experiences should be hear, and those experiences should be relayed to people experiencing similar problems. Because if one does not actually experience those problems, it is hard to give a meaningful advice.

Different problem with human body that is unrelated, yet closely connected to the mind, and which is my experience that I live with 24/7.

Tinnitus. I damaged my hearing in a loud concert I was hesitating to go. And then I was struck with maddening ringing in my ears. From the early points, it was causing me a lot of stress and unpleasant feelings. I even broke down in tears few times because it was driving me crazy. And then one time of using a chainsaw for 5 minutes without hearing protection also sent me to emergency ENT doctor. And it made my tinnitus obviously worse. But then I knew that intravenous injections for 10 days after an injury of inner ear can make this not get even worse.

Some people develop tinnitus spontaneously, some people have it since they were born, sometimes it is a side effect of medication, and sometimes it is a result of prolonged exposure to loud noise or acute exposure to extremely loud noise.

As hearing is an intimate part of human mind, and internally at least I think in spoken words inside, and having it disrupted by constantly buzzing sound at 15kHz is not pleasant. But it took reading experiences of others, their ways of dealing with it, reading "A letter to tinnitus sufferer" specifically written by a doctor who had tinnitus himself. Sometimes people resorted to being surgically deafened because they could not bear the ringing. Sometimes people get cochlear implant, reserach goes in various treatments, noninvasive or invasive. Sometimes people even kill themselves because the ringing in their ears is unbearable. It took me approximately 3 years before I became comfortable with the ringing. And also a lot of education on signal processing the brain does. In fact in complete silence, I can hear the ringing ramp up to higher intensity than in faint white noise of a city. But no matter how loud is my ringing blaring, it no longer drives me insane.

Why am I writing this? To illustrate with one different ailment that people can get used to many discomforts. Of course discomforts that are truly debilitating cannot get used to, such as chronic pain, chronic illnesses that heavily interfere with daily functioning. It is up to people with gender dysphoria to classificate their problem based on different stories from people with similar and different ailments that are connected to the mind.

Pic related, from materialist view we are our bodies. Without the signals from body and processing in the brain there will be no mind. And without the mind, the body would not survive. And we can perform any social role, even very unusual social roles that do not fit societal conventions. And probably gender is a way to internalize specific social roles. I don't know much about gender but I know a lot about tinnitus and its effect on mind. I hope certain parallels can be drawn. Even more so as your ears are much more closer to the mind than tactile sensations or awareness of various parts of body. But it might depend person from person.

Without hearing you cannot interact socially in a meaningful manner, because certain communication channel is blocked. Gender identity does not pose any block to this communication.

But when it comes to habituating (getting used to) gender dysphoria, it is absolutely crucial to having heard the experiences of people who as I stated above had experience with it.

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It's nonsense.
You have a dick or a vagina at birth - doesn't matter what you do to your body, you can't change that.
It's a mental illness - and no, that's not derogatory, most people have something like depression or what have you - and one method of managing it is to live as though you are the other gender.
Unfortunately liberals believe it. Like, actually believe that people can be a different gender on the inside, even though gender is 100% biology - its not genetic to wear dresses or wear make up, that's the social construct part.

Gender is probably a hamfisted category that barely fits the reality. There is too much variance to social roles, and variance to the dependence between social role and biological sex.

And as with liberals, they are afraid of materialism like vampires are afraid of garlic, or devil is afraid of the cross. So naturally they think mind is independent of the body and the conclusions they draw from this speak for themselves.

Great document illustrating the experiences of trans people.
youtube.com/watch?v=-pxxBQm114k

In a sense perhaps, the ultimate goal of Marxism is going to be abolition of gender itself, so yes Trans people are open to that criticism, but so are straight ‘normal’ people.
That being said in our short term situation, Trans people are useful in that their very existence also brings anxiety to the straight’s mind and doubt of gender as a concept itself(how is this thing real if one can become a man or a woman through science and cosmetic ways?). This is many react with violence in response to the fabled ‘trap’. It is not just normal homophobia, but the trans person reveals the gender dysphoria and doubt that exists in us all.

yes, but they are socially categorized as masculine and feminine and there are social consequences to acting counter to that categorization.

britannica.com/topic/Federal-Reserve-System

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paul_Warburg

youtube.com/watch?v=ySVGAS9JkPY

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Gender dysphoria has clear neurological causes, dipshits. Totally makes you seem reasonable to avoid the whole issue of, you know, literal materialist causes of the condition.

The former doesn't lead to the latter, you must be a shallow idiot to think it does. Everything about human civilization can be construed as social contract, it doesn't make it non-real. Indeed, Marx went to great length to show how social relations are material relations. Are modes of production material? Obviously. Yet they are a social construct.

Masculine / feminine hegemony. Brainlet Example. High heels where once seen as masculine, then they where feminine, then disco happened and they where both m/f, now they are femin…

Essentially, whatever the mainstream hegemonic psyop is. Then you have hybrid-m/f which is the break away. Or the redefinition of m/f hegemonic norms

All this considered gender is not a persons sex. And gender is not down to traits or characteristics because the m/f hegemony and hybridised m/f is subjectively and objectively in constant redefinition.

So, one could say that trans people are male/female/ hermaphrodite. With a hybridised masculinity / feminity. A radical stance on their m/f regarding their sex.

Regarding class there is very little material interplay.
Other than, for the proletariat, exclusion from work / society which is alienating. Regarding the bourgeoise - example katlyn Jenner, very little in regards to material factors other than trans spooked alienation.

In terms of how humanist Marxist should approach the subject. It is worth not looking at the divisions such as sex, ethnicity, age or gender, but our collective goal, as the workers to cease the means of production, and remove the class oppression through the abolishment of the capitalist system. And so on, and so on. *sniff

...

First off gender dysphoria is a mental illness not a philosophy. If it were a philosophy it could be described both in terms of idealism and in terms of materialism. One could say they have certain parts and they want other parts so they may seek to change it best they can and hope it's enough to satisfy their desires. So many Reactionaries on this board. Reactionaryism is anti-Socialist.

Mental illness is a spook

TERFs are bigots. I also used to be one, but now I'm a modern American-style feminist. When I see a boy enjoying strawberry ice cream, I tell him he really wants to be a woman because pink is the female color. When I hear about a little girl having interest in programming, I tell her she is in the wrong body and that in the future she'll need to cut her tits off. Feminism is all about cutting tits off. And the more tits you cut off, the feminister it is.

Finally, a feminism i can get behind >:^)

BASED

Hi I'm with Cosmopolitan and I'm wondering if you'd be interested in writing a regular column full of empowering advice for young women.

Tbh a lot of female TERFs dislike trannies just cause those evil boys would enter there safe sp.ace dressed like them

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Here's the only truth. If you deny it you're a brainlet idealist.

They are materialists because they demonstrate the idealist signifiers "male" and "female" to be terms you can transition in between. Idiot right-wingers who are stuck in religious ways of thinking get triggered by this and come up with childish forms of resistance like purposefully using the wrong pronouns. These people get so spooked by gender categories that they refuse to call something female when it looks like a female, behaves like a female, and asks you to be called a female. Rather than going with their sense experience, they base their opinion on genitals, or worse, chromosomes, they will never see or interact with. To them, this is a more important truth of gender than the things we interact with in everyday life. It is idealism in its purest form.

Transgender people may still be idealist, because they feel a need to correspond to one gender rather than another. They could be attaching deeper signification to the categories than is materially there. However, they could equally well be transitioning because they prefer the material mode of life of the other gender over their own, in which case this accusation is unfounded.

And that's a valid reason for them to hate TERFs.

I mean, hate trannies, fuck.

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Trotscum, didn't your mother have to breastfeed you or did you go straight for the Nestle?

i guess the problem that many of us have with transgender activists is that if their gender is not something biological or innate in a materialist sense, then why the fuck should we respect their pronouns? they want to call themselves a woman and wear women's clothing… alright, that's their choice - but why the fuck do the rest of us have to accomodate their LARP?

lrn 2 biology philistine, even in less complicated animals gender is more fluid and complex than an x or y chromosome
btw can you independently prove the importance of the 23rd autosome? can you even tell us what these chromosomes might contain? 'gurl n boy' is not an acceptable answer.

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Chromosomes exist, but when is the last time you saw a fucking chromosome in person? When you meet a woman, the thing you care about isn't her chromosomes. It is 0.01% of what woman-ness entails in everyday life. You're being autistic.

Because it's polite. They go through all this effort to present themselves as a woman, and then you come along and ruin it.
And they aren't pretending to be a fucking hobbit. All they propose is that "he" is now a "she." What's the problem with this? I don't see it.

TERFs are just buttmad that trannies are taking away their special snowflake wymyn card. Unironically I changed my mind about trannies when I heard about them.

The thesis: The Incel
The antithesis: Trannies
the synthesis: you may like cock and will remain a virgin when it comes to wymyn.

As a trans person, I dislike the narrative media and activists/trenders push. I have physical dysphoria from sexual characterisitics. I disliked having a penis when I was young and watching my body become more masculine(hairy, wider shoulders, oily skin, boners) made me want to die. I started taking hrt in order to prevent further masculinization and to gain female physical characteristics.

Male and female are categories of biological sex. Those signifiers apply to all organisms with biological sex. Hell even trees can have male and female sexual organs on one tree.

Based on those categories of male and female, a person gets socialized into a man or a woman. You can transition between man and woman with a varying degree of success or lack thereof. You cannot transition between male and female. The only transition in sex is towards a neuter.

Why do you want to replace sex with gender? Those two categories exist along each other and are not purely independent of each other.

the radio said no john. you are the idealist

Most of those activist wouldn't know materialism anyway. And those who do only use the label, not the content.

Of course it is more complex. And the physical appearance of sexual category it is more tied to an endocrine system during the development, because the chemical signalling is what controls the growth.

You don't see any sympathy for guys and teenagers with klinefelter syndrome or other disorders causing them to grow moobs and fat asses as guys. And many times they get mocked for it, by normal guys who use this to take out their own insecurities on someone who was dealt a shitty card in life.

When I meet a woman who is 30 years old, what is in front of me is a person that was becoming a woman and performing as a woman for 30 years.

And besides, the dysphoria mostly stays. An endless cycle of 'if I do this I will be comfortable with my body'. Existence as a human being is one of discomfort, nausea, constipation and diarrhea.

Even Leonardo da Vinci wrote that sexual organs are ugly. What does one expect? A beautiful flower between the legs? All penises and vaginas are ugly, people are generally a varying degree of ugliness, regardless of sex, skin color, ethnicity, religion. Mistake is to let oneself be weirded out by this ugliness and not learn to find beauty in this ugliness.

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Beyond the ‘it’s polite’ thing, just like basically social cues. Like your parents gave you a name. This name has no spiritual connection to you as a person, and it has no real material basis in reality, yet you heavily identify with it. You perk your head up like a dog when someone says it. You inscribe or etch it into every fucking creation you make. Wouldn’t it be annoying if some loser just came up to you and insisted on calling you other peoples names? You might brush it off at first, but what if it was an entire group of people, and they all did it super obnoxiously. Wouldn’t you think them autistic?

If theres a treatment to my condition(estrogen and testosterone blockers) why should I not take the treatment? I'm much happier now that I'm not masculinizing and if I stopped HRT I would go back to being a suicidal disassociative wreck.Being MtF is a condition as a result of too much estrogen in the womb resulting in dypshoria.