I get if you’re against the common practices of American antifa, but if you’re anti-antifa, you have immediately taken the side of the fascist.
Now that we have that out of the way, what are we going to do about the growing rise of fascism, nationalism, and far-right around the world. Hungary, Brazil, and the US are already on their way to fascism. We can defeat the local skin-heads and vocal Nazis, but what do we do about the large figureheads of the far-right?
Other urls found in this thread:
en.wikipedia.org
communicationtheory.org
twitter.com
muckrock.com
itsgoingdown.org
en.wikipedia.org
twitter.com
assassination
We're not liberals, we're no stranger to violence. Kicking the shit out of nazifags and breaking starbucks' windows is fine, it's just that it's only a shot term solution and doesn't deal with the material conditions that allows and propagates fashits in the first place. Riots are fun, but it won't lead us into Anarchism. My only real problem with the (American) antifa is that (some) members:
They need to take some lessons from the Greeks & how they battle the Golden Dawn.
I'll agree that much.
Education, basically. It's important we get our message to people first, it'll inform them and block the nazifag propaganda. If nazifags get their message out first, it'll corrupt normalfags and shut off (what's left of) their critical thinking. Read this:
en.wikipedia.org
communicationtheory.org
One thing I've realized is that violence will never be seen as justified to the majority of liberals because they still believe in their lib democracy and GET OUT AND VOTE. user above me is right, education is very important but never forget their first pic is beyond accurate. Educating liberals *out* of that mindset and showing them what is really occurring is critical.
No. Random violence is extremely counterintuitive because it scares, hurts and add extra work to fellow proles without challenging the ruling class. Violence must be targeted. One burning tire thrown on neoliberal/fascist party building is worth more than thousands broken shops windows. If you, let's say, burn car of such influential person, nobody can misinterpret it as """terrorist attack""", it's simply strong political statement.
I can't think of any outside of active gangs like RAM and Atomwaffen, and corrupt pigs, that would really need to be targeted. Killing soft targets like Ben Shapiro is a lot of unnecessary heat, and would only embolden high level technofascists.
To be honest, that false flag MAGAbomber guy picked a shitload of perfect targets like Eric Holder.
I don't think anyone is anti-antifa here or at least would label themselves that. Critical of unorganized Americans, maybe.
This. American antifa is shit, but that is more because of the former. Some European antifas are based, for example Greeks who are organized and aren't afraid of killing fascists and firebombing Golden Dawn offices
When I was a liberal I remember thinking Antifa were just idpol-possessed ideologues, and my opinion hasn't changed much since. Sure, punching Nazis is always good, but they need to focus on raising class consciousness and tone down the bluehair bullshit.
leftism should either be done right or not at all
some is the key word. German antifa, for example, do have some based moments, but overall seems like self-hating zionist shill base, while antifa in my country is not doing anything but put stickers on the streets.
Antifa is a form of praxis, not a sect
Well regardless the point is that we don't think that antifa is bad by itself, merely that a lot of them have shit organization
seriously how are German leftists so self-hating?
East Germany existed for the second half of the 20th century and was perfectly okay with being anti-UN
It's really a propaganda war and antifascists don't tend to advertise their successes, which is a problem, but there are reasons for that. The other day antifascists in Appalachia infiltrated a Patriot Front cell and disrupted a banner drop over a highway. The account I read stated that the Nazis tried to fight but got their asses kicked and had to run back to their van (which also got smashed up and spraypainted with GTFO NAZIS). There have been other cases like this that I didn't even hear about until I read about them in FOIA'd police reports on these things. There was one case detailed in a police study that noted a Nazi dude tried to meet up with recruits in a Waffle House to do vetting interviews and got jumped. This is happening more often than people think.
The antifascists are getting better at the propaganda war. There was another case recently where a far-right militia was using an unsecured radio channel to coordinate attacking protesters (picking them off individually and attacking them so the cops couldn't see), but antifascists had infiltrated the comms, recorded everything and leaked it to friendly press. Self-defense techniques at the protest itself (including by armed black activists) protected the protest. The result is that a normie liberal audience now sees an exposed fascist plot and the enemy can't hide behind their usual victim-card bullshit.
What Nazis have done really well is exploit the media's naivety and "both-sideserism" to their advantage. Antifascists need to cut down on the Nazis' opportunities to do that, while also exposing the fascists for who they really are.
I also really insist on antifascism rooted in the community in a bottom-up way. Workers will spontaneously organize to resist fascist encroachments but they often don't have the context or knowledge of the groups involved – so one job of antifascists who have encyclopedic knowledge of the local Nazis is to network with local community groups and (yes, unfortunately) liberals so they can be better organized. The main thing is that fascists in the U.S. try to provoke liberals into overreacting while camouflaging their message. They do that so the normie right-wing conservatives will provide cover for the Nazis because the normie conservatives don't like the liberals.
That's also Greece though. I'm not saying there's nothing to learn from the Greeks but the context is different with very different legal regimes. Golden Dawn will attack trade union rallies with baseball bats with nails driven through them. I have seen American neo-Nazi groups studying Golden Dawn and applying their tactics to varying extents though. When they've pulled it off it has been very scary but there have been other groups where the feds have gone in and ripped the guts out of the organization.
I would highly recommend reading this report on Golden Dawn tactics from GUE/NGL: twitter.com
Interesting, do you have some links to police reports about nazis getting btfo?
It's not only leftists. I do not know many germans, but they seem to be very high on muh forefather's sin propaganda. The fact that only far right offers them liberation from this self hatred while stuffing them with literal nazi propaganda seems very dangerous.
That's not naivete, that's liberalism: the left wing of fascism.
that's some euphemism you got there.
>Terrorism is the use of violence as a means to create terror among masses of people
I want to take a stab at this. I feel that the American Anftifa not only can learn from the Greece and other antifa groups around the world. But should look to the past and mimic that of the Black Panther party before it got defanged by the CIA and FBI. We really need to continue to arm minority groups and get them protect their communities.
Because best way to defeat Fascism is to instill fear in those groups. To me it seems most logical and as some others have mentioned that disrupting the Propaganda machine is the best approach. This way we have the armed Militias that will defend those who cannot defend themselves. By making these groups we would face the Porkies pigglets who will try to destroy these communties again.
I been thinking about this all day as drive around at work. Education is the most powerful tool in our arsenal and should not be taken for granted. We have to actually go out and form these groups and start agitating and learning our oppositions tactics counter them. Maybe then we can turn Antifa from just a Anti-fascist movement to a full blown revolutionary group to take out those that fully enable fascism in the first place. You can call me a larper about this and how unrealistic these may seem that last part. But we gotta start some where.
I support Antifa. I just wish Antifa in America was more like the Greek version
I wouldn't disagree but the real challenge is mobilizing working class whites against this shit too. Blacks and latinos see an obvious threat from fascism, but it will be much harder to convince whites of this, especially since many working class whites are brainwashed by conservative idpol. It's imperative that we don't let the struggle against fascism degenerate into the racial conflict that the fascists want.
Indeed, I agree. The reason why I brought up the Black Panthers as an example is because they actually helped the poor blacks and whites in their communities. Providing the kids free lunches, and other necessities. This is what caught the attention of the Segregationists and the government, because if Blacks and Whites could get along it breaks down their entire narrative.
We have to beat the Fascists before they infect the white working class folks. Because we have to educate them and show them why they are poor and starving despite breaking themselves for their bosses day in and day out and barely see their conditions get any better. But that requires us not to devolve into liberal idpol which demonizes white people, and thus push them further from our cause.
At least at this stage we need to figure out how to get groups together for education purposes without liberals infecting it. Because we all know what happens to Leftist groups that invite liberals into their ranks. It just becomes a echo chamber for liberal bougouise social democracy. We are literally living in a time where information is readily available at our finger tips and in the palms of our hands. I don't have to stress this here but we are at the cross roads of Barbarism or Socialism.
On a slight tangent, I am thinking about actually trying to get more educated on contradictions of Capital and explaining socialism without actually spelling it out. This way it can be used as a tactic to easy white workers into the cause. I also believe that I should actively get involved in politics in order echo not just my frustration but the frustrations of the workers here in my state, dealing with monopolies on our energy, our main river is poisoned by a chemical called GenX and our state government just allowed it to happen.
The Liberals in the USA are becoming full fledged Fascists.
One thing I have to note is that the Fascists in the USA are also using another tactic, they are making it so that the Working Class will look and see "GEE IF ALL IT TAKES TO DEFEAT FASCISTS IS SOME RICK AND MORTY FANBOY THEN THEY ARENT A THREAT TO ME".
Make no mistake, they are actually sending out their weakest for us to get. They are just cannon fodder. We need to go for the big boys.
itsgoingdown.org
Here's the story they referenced, it's a good read
Explain this.
I've hung out with the mall ninjas before and glanced over their books, they advocate screwing the system over by selling dope and living off autism bux. Being a wage slave is worse than death to them.
Might just be the anarchokiddies.
You can't say their mall ninjas if don't meet the last requirement of liking to throw paper shruikens at liberals
Nothing will lead you into anarchism. Put your trust in the vanguard instead.
You don't know? The Mall ninja culture is older than Rome itself, founded on the island of iceland. If anyone, the fucking japs appropriated mall ninja culture!
The fact that you don’t realize that state-worship is a key feature of fascism and that fascism does not necessarily involve racialism proves you are a retard. Anyone who supports the surveillance apparatus, militarized police and endless war is a fascist in my book
socialist states are all those things too
Uhhhhhhhhhhhh excuse me? Have you even read Hegel? Being anti-antifa embodies Hegels's rejection of the equation of double negatives with original propositions. It can be seen in his formulation of the dialectic:
Thesis: fascism
Antithesis: antifa
Synthesis: anti-antifa
This feels like Zig Forums listened to us complain about succdems and invented their own bogeyman that they can blame for the rope day never happening. Except ethnonationalists remain an absurdly fringe niche pretty much limited to internet kids and meth head gangs in the American South, and they end up doing nothing but fellating and agitating for "civnat" faggots like Drumpf and Borsalino anyway
And that was a flaw in some of the socialist states of the 20th century.
Totally redundant, all nationalities are based on ethnicity no one actually believes in magic dirt but white liberals. Do you confuse country and state too?
Nearly every single non-white nation-state citizenship is based on ethnicity, explicitly. Read the Green Book, newfriend.
Implying that 90% of non-whites live in nation-states and not post-colonial agglomerations. Also, I don’t see a reason to divide the world between “white states” and “non-white states”
...
While not anti-antifa, a few years back I would say most anons here were in some shape or form harshly critical of it, both in the praxis itself and how it was carried out.
I have no problem with people organizing against fascists and never really have, but I stand by that it should be done right or not at all. The flaws that were inherent in protests and counter-protests a year or so back still plague many groups and many of those flaws are unfortunately linked to the wide political umbrella that is inherent to being only anti-fascist. There is no coherent ideology besides everyone being against fascism and therefore no message to be disseminated after confrontations. For a fascist, a victory for them on the street is a victory for fascism and they hope others will see that as well. But for anti-fascists, who is their victory attributable to? Of course as a socialist one is already inherently anti-fascist, to call oneself oneself an anti-fascist in addition would be an oxymoron, but not every anti-fascist is a socialist. Any hope for pushing any form of a socialist movement forward becomes muddled in a nebulous mix of agitated Liberals, SocDems, and other "travelers". Not only does this lack of ideology create problems for dissemination and public opinion, but it also leads to a complete lack of actual real organization. Fascism is inherent to capital, and it will only be exacerbated with capitalism's continued decay. With no coalesced left to provide an alternative when fascism is beaten back, anti-fascism becomes fruitless and without purpose. Either an actual leftist movement or party can appear, or fascism is left to eventually take hold. Other then the already decaying status quo there is no other alternative.
Ramón, get the ice pick
I agree and I think this is what the RCP has attempted to do – because they're the RCP and a cult and that's their methodology; create front groups to recruit liberals into the cause du jour. You'll see them pop up at anti-fascist demos handing out flyers wrapped around the idea of building a mass movement around anti-fascism that is marketed towards liberals. The "refusefascism.org" website is their website for this. It's not anti-capitalist even but just aimed at "removing the Trump/Pence Regime." It's threadbare stuff.
My sense is to really get involved in the socialist cause and really push socialism (which is what we should all be doing anyways) but incorporate anti-fascist work into that. Don't make a big deal out of it; just incorporate it into the things you're already doing. It's just one of your things. You don't need to rely on anarchists dressed up like ninjas and in many parts of the U.S. those groups don't even exist anyways
Okay storytime. I won't disclose where, and nothing I'm saying is particularly sensitive. But I learned right away to avoid the local self-declared "antifa" group (anarchists) because they are mostly young kids who don't know what they are doing – and they don't even really do anything anyways. They are just kind of embarrassing and are under a noticeable amount of police attention whenever they do pop up. Basically, they're not reliable and can't be trusted.
Meanwhile, the neo-Nazi groups in the area were pasting flyers and dropping banners to try and get in the news. These fascist groups are betting that naive liberals will see this stuff, panic, and then call the press. The press then publishes a story about the "alleged" neo-Nazi banner, which spreads the neo-Nazi group's name and message far more widely than had it never been reported on. The neo-Nazi groups also camouflage their message (they don't put swastikas on their imagery). This results in idiotic centrists wading into the comment sections of these articles saying "hmm… I don't know if I agree they are Nazis, let's look at both sides of this…"
At the same time, when they would do this in a black or brown neighborhood, people in those communities obviously perceive this stuff as what it really is, and become terrified. It's a mix of fear/intimidation and playing on liberal naivety. I went to a community meeting after this happened once, and I addressed these frightened people and explained what was happening (because I know how these Nazis work) and I think that helped them. But I would hear one of the liberal activists stand up and say "… but I called the police and they didn't do anything!" And I have to tell them that (a) putting up Nazi flyers isn't illegal and (b) the cops don't care anyways so don't even bother.
Meanwhile, I've frozen out the antifa group and focused on organizing the socialists. It's not illegal to put up Nazi flyers, and it's also not illegal to have people go out and take them down as soon as they pop up. When the Nazis do something provocative enough that a (liberal) community group reacts, we can have people on the ground at these meetings to try and keep them from overreacting – which is what the Nazis want. And we also organize workshops on anti-fascism and reading groups of literature about fascist ideology, the history of fascism, etc.
But the main thing is just proceeding normally with the socialist work and not letting this Nazi stuff distract you. This is not the main thrust or priority. It's more like running errands to cut down on fascist propaganda and recruitment opportunities – because if they do organize and grow bold enough, the Nazis will start attacking socialist meetings and demonstrations. Full stop. But the idea of going full Greek antifa on these motherfuckers does not accord with the actual situation on the ground, which is a good thing.
There's an anti fascist group up here in Bury: was speaking to a bloke from it and he said that the yanks ruined the term antifa.
user from here , I agree with what you said and what your doing completely. I'm glad to hear someone is helping to remedy some things and actually organize socialists.
what's with the muppet
mall ninja shit is an interesting blend of western obsession with 'orientalism' and cheap mass produced commodities if you really think about it
You can use the antifa kiddies to help protect you from the nazis. That's about it. Antifa itself is not supposed to be about promoting socialism but keeping fashies occupied and/or afraid while real socialists work to develop working class consciousness and power.
So leftcoms are fascists to you?
A Leftcom Publishing house went and started publishing Holocaust Denial books saying it was "exposing Capitalist lies" and all that read it are Far-Right.
What is your guess.
Link?
Haha ah I'm sorry. Americans have limited political education and most have never been political actors before.
Agents
Underrated
We need to unironically nuke America before it kills us all.
Do you even read the shit that you link? Not to mention the complete lack of any sources whatsoever. Have you even read the books in question?
Okay thanks for clearing that up.
yeah no you guys are lame as fuck
anti-fascism is good but I'm not obliged to respect every chaplet and angry democrat who self-identifies as antifascist online
you can't vote away corruption so if your country goes post-liberal it might be time for actually opposing state power instead of shitty youtubers and young republicans at their bake sales
What smoking susa, pimping their gf to arabs and beating jainists to death over symbols
if they threw molotov cocktails at the police in the us those mofos would get shot.
antifascism is a spook
Spooks are Spooks
I agree with that. It's just the local self-declared "antifa" group in my area is useless. In other cities in the U.S. it's different.
Not only that, but you'd stand a good chance of getting arrested before the demo even begins when a SWAT team flashbangs your house because you're in possession of an unlawful incendiary device, then you get prosecuted and sent to prison for 10 years.
Did the agitated signal really unite the joke?
Richard wollf would
