The IMT convinced the unofficial Democrat Cops of America Spokesman Bhaskar Sunkara into a debate on socialism.
Can someone redpill me on the IMT?
How do they differ from other Trots?
IMT vs DSA
Oliver Hughes
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Adrian Mitchell
What is the debate supposed to be
Colton Lee
Technically not a debate but in Philly the IMT is advertising it as a debate via word of mouth.
Ethan Ross
Live debates are pseudo-intellectualist bullshit. They don't accomplish anything.
Zachary Williams
I'm not particularly familiar with the American branch of the IMT but they're my preferred tendency so i'm interested in what this debate is going to actually be about.
Simply put the IMT are orthodox trots, their roots are with Militant, that is the entryists in Labour who were in control of Liverpool city council and got purged by Kinnock because we live in the doomed timeline where Benn didn't win the deputy leadership because of the traitor unions. The IMT were thrown out as a faction from the CWI in the 90s over the CWI's rejection of entryism. The central figure in the IMT was Ted Grant who broke with the Fourth International over their degeneration and surrender to petite-bourgeois trends, particularly idpol.
They're very concerned with theory and history, anti-idpol, anti-anarkiddie upholders of Bolshevism. The current leading theorist of the IMT is Alan Woods who is a very nice welsh man who was friends with Hugo Chavez who read his books and for a while took advice from him. However Woods criticised and still criticises Chavez for trying to 'carry out half a revolution' and not pushing all the way through which is why Venezuela is in the situation it is in now. He's not a big fan of Maduro but still has hope for the Venezuelan working class being capable of carrying out the Bolivarian revolution to its conclusion.
The IMT's main website is here marxist.com
Michael Nelson
So the PSL defends North Korea and the IMT defends Venezuela.
Nicholas Sanders
ehh.. I guess it is a defense of venezuela from imperialism but its critical support and opposed to Maduro's policies as constant concessions to the bourgeoisie.
Alexander Torres
Is this some sort of third-rate Thomas Sankara?
Nathaniel Nguyen
Petite-bourgeois American-Indian, owner of a small social democratic media conglomerate.
Austin Wilson
I think it's also worth noting that the CWI has a tendency to support national liberation movements and self-determination while the IMT generally rejects it as bourgeois. For instance, the CWI supported Catalan independence while the IMT opposed it.
Eli White
What is their logic in opposing self-determination?
Would the IMT support a United Syria over the municipalist project one big US military base in Syria?
Jayden Roberts
How is it a debate when they are functionally on the same side?
Xavier Nguyen
AFAIK, it's the IMT's interpretation of internationalism. All nationalist movements are bourgeois in their eyes and independence movements are a distraction.
Their position on Syria seems to be "both sides are bad, but FSA and their imperialist backers are worse"
marxist.com
marxist.com
Feel free to correct me if I'm wrong.
Dylan Gonzalez
Here's some accessible stuff they've written on the topic
marxist.com
marxist.com
They have a whole syria section on their website
marxist.com
Leo King
fuggg
Jace Myers
I'm naturally suspicious of Trotskyists but this seems reasonable
Jordan Collins
I mean that the IMT's wing in England and Wales is Socialist appeal: which is a Labour insular group. As far as British trots go, they are actually pretty good (and believe me, I hate british trots).
Don't make me dream britrotanon, it makes me feel.
Also who wants to know a meme? So Bhaskar Sunkara recently bought and reopened Tribune: the UK's Democratic Socialist paper of Orwell, Foot, and Bevan fame. So this is effectively a fight between Militant Tendency and Tribune, but in America. What an age, ladies and gents, what an age.
Nathan Peterson
The Labour Party is a party of neoliberalism.
You cannnot renew either the Democrats or Labour.
Trot's obsession with coopting other movements is parasitic and this is the main reason why no one likes trots.
Jacob Watson
When was the last time a neoliberal party had a marxist as its chancellor-in-waiting?
The democrats were founded as a party of the slave-owning aristocracy in the South, Labour was founded as a means to express the proletarian trade union movement. At their cores, one is founded on the elite, the other on the working class. Now you can argue about imperialism, or it's 1990s years: but to say Corbyn or the reinvigorated is anything but legitimately democratic socialist is factually incorrect.
Christian Taylor
labour was a compromise between socialist unions and bourgeois trade unions, as Lenin noted.
Alexander Bailey
What were the bourgeois trade unions he identified in the pre-war period? Just interested.
Jack Ramirez
Trade union consciousness is not working class consciousness.
Jonathan Cox
When are you from, 2000s?
Brody Miller
It's sad that people still believe in the parliamentary road to socialism.
Jason King
A tank cannot drive down a country lane, nor can a bicycle on a motorway: different conditions require different methods.
Jose Hill
Is that a quote from Eduard Bernstein?
Leo Sanchez
No it's something I pulled out my arse.
Asher Reed
Sounds like typical Trotsky rationale for betraying Marxism.
Jeremiah Barnes
read 'where is britain going?' you faggots
Jason Fisher
Wish I could go to this, I'll be at work when its happening. Would be interesting to see.
Isaiah Williams
Only thing I know about the IMT is that they have a silly slogan about nationalizing only the biggest 500 companies or something like that.
Yet both a tank and a bicycle can fit inside your ass.
Dylan Howard
Brayden Parker
Commanding heights, it is nicked from Benn's AES, which in turn was based on Attlee's premiership.
Carter Murphy
Have a feeling this is gonna be a huge wank contest and a complete waste of time.
Oliver Martin
"Debates" like this tend to be: you don't win over the proletariat by debate,s you win them over by improving their conditions.
Lincoln Johnson
Actually a pretty good take. Wtf I love Trots now.
Hunter Carter
IMT position on identity politics:
Marxism vs Identity Politics
marxist.com
Dominic Rivera
IMT here, who else going?
Carter Allen
Wow my first time seeing another IMT comrade on Zig Forums. I'll be watching the livestream.
Hudson Lewis
(me)
Are you in Philly?
Josiah Edwards
Cameron Stewart
They're like any other Trot group. They are insistent that only they have the correct interpretation of Marxism and it's their job to take over the Democrat Cops of America after it collapses. They are typical entryists.
They use sex, love bombing, and other culty tactics to recruit very active Democrat Cops of America members into joining the IMT.
Then they have dual membership. This has happened in chapters like Pittsburgh and Philadelphia. I hear that they're trying similar things in Brooklyn.
John Price
Are you gay?
Daniel Cook
Even if you are gay, the IMT will offer you queer bait to suck you into their Trotsky cult.
Wyatt Morales
...
Ryan Gomez
Sign me up
Isaac Sanders
Hot Trots are waiting to suck YOUR dick RIGHT NOW
Levi Howard
Can confirm, am IMT incubus. hmu
Elijah Carter
Stupid sexy Trots. Seriously though, why are all the Trots within reach so fucking cultish?
Elijah Young
most left-wing parties be they trots, maotists or mls are 'cultish', its a consequence of being small insular groups. There was a whole big thread about it a while ago.
Ryder Adams
Yeah, but Bob Avakian-tier?
Daniel Robinson
well yeah, maoists tend to be on a whole other level of crazy
Caleb Perry
Ethan Jackson
True.
Joshua Phillips
nearby, going to NERMS?
Brayden Brooks
Most of the time, they don't bother to fuck you, especially if you're new to socialism. They simply give you a lot of positive reinforcement.
They only fuck you if they
1.Find you genuinely sexually attractive.
2. They see you as politically useful for their organization.
They also fuck each other a lot and that causes a lot of drama internally.
Lincoln Hernandez
tl;dr - CIA vs FBI
Blake Anderson
There was this dream I had before about cops killing each other. It started with q couple of cops helping a guy who was just in a bad accident he was on the ground bleeding but alive. Then another pig comes in and starts shooting him just because the first two cops start shooting the third and then another cop shows up and starts shooting the three of them. A whole chain reaction of red bacon grease everywhere ends with every cop dead by "friendly fire" .
Kayden Nguyen
looks like the FBI picked up on this thread /sigh
Cooper Gonzalez
Isn't that the strategy of every university based Leninist sect?
Owen Lewis
The PSL defends both Venezuela and DPRK and has a line similar to on Maduro
Matthew Campbell
Wish I could. I am in Washington and that would be a lot of travel. Hope it goes well.
Camden Stewart
A Trot is 99% of the time an acceptable "radical" liberal, and the Democrat Cops of America are just acceptable radical liberals. Fuck them and their debate, I hope they both get fisted.
Why would anyone care about this dumb shit? What could they POSSIBLY say of ANY importance?!
Jackson Powell
>tfw no qt gf (male) to sell newspapers with and love bomb me
Feels unreal, comrades
William James
lmao, this board is ten times more red lib than the IMT, stop talking shit
Oliver Butler
t. IMT newspaper boy
Camden Evans
online editor actually, checkmate
Carson Robinson
For the US section?
Michael Phillips
Surely you jest!
Nolan Martinez
obviously memeing you dips
Juan Reed
Are you a Trot?
Jackson Edwards
Sounds awesome! Sign me up!
Carson Long
yes
Michael Perez
Well, then I merely made an educated guess. More importantly, please send love and affection in the form of newspapers my way
Brody Jenkins
I bet they cock tease a lot, desu.
With the promise of penetration after you join. (which they never provide for the ugly recruits)
This is my fetish.
Jackson Evans
I just want to lay in bed with a cute Trot gf (male or female) and hear all about what Trotsky, Lenin, Marx, and Hegel have written and we spoon.
Gavin Cook
How tf did this thread turn into trot-lust?? Is FBI doing this?
Samuel Jenkins
tfw when no fat sweaty hairy maoist bf whispering Quotations from Chairman Mao Tse-tung into your ear.
Adrian Taylor
The IMT/Fightback is a typical Trotsky sectarian cult filled with sexually assaults. Whenever someone tries to speak out, they are shut down in public.
reddit.com
Brayden Powell
fuck off red lib
Nolan Sanchez
"LIES YOU REVISIONIST LIB!!!11"
Stay classy, ☭TANKIE☭ scum.
Dominic Rogers
Watch: The Future of US Socialism, with Bhaskar Sunkara & John Peterson
Liam Hall
Bump
Owen Sanchez
The livestream crashed
Jose Anderson
New livestream: facebook.com
Isaac Young
Can't believe Peterson lost to a SocDem.
Ethan Turner
Don't play around with Trotskyism. I would also recommend calling the police if you encounter any
Jason Brooks
Did you watch the debate?
Jason Foster
Bhaskar was eloquent and had a clear articulation of things, even if I disagree with a lot of it.
John Peterson was all over the place and basically made Leninism look like shit.
Eli Rogers
Around the Four, expect a sore.
Robert Brown
The 'debate' was structured in Sunkara's favour since he went second so with every question Peterson tried to give a general answer to, Sunkara was able to undermine and misrepresent Marxism but Peterson wasn't given a chance to refute him except trying to squeeze in some point of contention before moving onto the next question he was being asked.
Sunkara said a whole lot of nonsense and Peterson was having a hard time keeping up with trying to correct him and answer the very inspecific debate questions/topics. Still it was enjoyable to watch. The liberal 'socialist' who asked the first q&a question was hilarious tbh.
Jeremiah Brooks
Make whatever excuses you want.
The IMT did not dominate the debate and at the end the SocDem left the interaction feeling like he won.
Brandon Smith
The SocDem left feeling like he won because he is an idiot who doesn't understand dialectics. No matter what happened, he would have felt like he won.
Xavier Diaz
The Leninist was fierce about using antiquated jargon.
The Social Democrats will unfortunately end up winning because they don't have the need to LARP everywhere they go.
Leo Barnes
this didn't happen and is a retarded line of attack
literally what? At what point did anything even slightly LARPy take place?
Landon Bennett
There are probably like 10 words in socialist vernacular that might be considered "jargon" and they are easily explained and already known by millions. This meme needs to die.