Subculture and Lifestylism

Kill yourself. What other types of inhumane treatment do you support just because it doesn't effect you? The absolute state of this board

This. In a country with a non-existent left and an ingrained love of the police-state, what would be a more effective use of your time? Saying "Abolish ICE" to your fellow online leftists while turning off the average person with your edgy statements or actually getting out there and educating people on materialism?

How can anyone even consider themselves a socialist with this mentality.

by showing them your power level and telling them they will be first in gulag

If you think this will gain us people, I can only laugh. People won't become socialists because you educate them on materialism, they'll become socialists when they see it is in their interest

And saying "Abolish ICE" and "Open Borders Now" is in the interest of the average worker?

You obviously hold a narrow-minded nationalist view towards who is and is not worthy of being treated like a human-being if you don't see how the abolition of ICE (an arm of the American police-state) is beneficial to workers, both legal and illegal.

Keep going on your woke tirade without actually understanding nuances of situations or reading people's posts. You are a very good woketard.

Would abolishing ICE be a good thing? Yeah, it would.

Is it a political possibility in the short term and something that should be getting the amount of attention it is at the moment on the left? No.

Is saying "Abolish ICE" a serious policy proposal? No.

Is it a good way to get social climber posts in the subcultural left? Yeah, which is why they harp on it.

Yes it is

Lol no it isn't

Do you always begin a negotiation with the demands you want to end up compromising on?
How's that going for you?

Did the Democrats actually abolish ICE?

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How has wasting your time saying "Abolish ICE" within your radlib circles going for you?

Pretty well since it would seem since it keeps beaming our demands to your favorite MSM channel

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Wow four House members? Now that is powerful!

Yeah how could 1% of people ever control nearly everything what a crazy psychotic thing to believe

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Is there actual poling on the issue? If you have no evidence you're both talking out your ass

It's not economism to also choose the best option for the proletariat within the current framework in addition to rev activity. In fact you will not build a revolution without the support of the proles, and this is how you get it. Read Lenin again.

Ok, I dislike AOC and that shit she wrote is pretty cringy but holy fuck

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the absolute state of liberals here.

The point of Leninism is that you're the ones providing help to the proletariat, not porky.

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I don't think it's necessarily nativism. Under capitalism, it's true that workers are imported and immigration is used to drive down wages of native workers. As communists, one should be an advocate for both native and foreign-born workers, but one shouldn't be dishonest about how "open borders" as a policy would function currently and why many capitalists advocate for it. It isn't out of any affection for workers.

The free movement of labor only harms high wage earners in wealthy countries, who are a very small percentage of the totality of all workers. Low wage earners in wealthy countries are relatively unaffected, because they're already working for rock bottom wages. They merely gain more comrades at the bottom of the pile. All nativism really does is protect a small subsection of the working class, which makes it incompatible with universalist worker advocacy.

Regardless of the effects of immigration, the immediacy of replacing capitalism due to climate considerations means that harping on and on about open borders and other less important issues to a gradually more pissed off proletariat is retarded. Is this really the hill we want to die on?

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That sounds like a problem caused by scabs, not immigration.

Migrants must be unionized.

That goes without saying. The problem is that in practice, migrants who don't speak the language and don't know the country's labour laws are very easily intimidated away from unionizing by the literal mafia who run the companies (often in construction and similar work).
There was a case where Polish migrant workers performing repair work on some scumbag bourgie villa actually scrambled to hide (in cupboards, etc.) when the authorities came to check on their working conditions. They of course found that they'd been working for a fraction of what native workers are paid, with no overtime payment and for far longer hours than what's even legal. This is a recurring problem.
It's not as simple as saying "they should organize", if they think they'll be shipped back to Poland for their troubles. Their employers know this of course, and exploit that fact ruthlessly.

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It is when they're pitted against each other, as in capitalism. A greater supply of workers compared to demand for workers effectively reduce their bargaining power. Explain to me how I'm wrong about this.
You'd be correct if you were talking about sheer manpower for an insurrection or something, but migrant workers seem usually too afraid to be deported to engage in disruptive politics or labour activism.
You have no idea how much I hope they'll prove me wrong, but I'm not holding my breath.

ICE is a legit waste of money that should be abolished. There is literally nothing coming out of pouring money into it.

I'm fucking serious. It should be viewed as waste of money.

Wanting to abolish ICE and being empathetic with people isn't being a "blind humanitarian", you brainless mongoltard.

it's been a shitty subculture for like fifty years
you're not going to be able to turn that around in the united states

sympathy

Of course they don't actually want open borders, it has become some sort of poetic performance with people one-upping each other. It's like watching two rappers go on about how amazing their sex lifes are. At the start it's somewhat believable, but a few minutes later the stories are about whole villages drowning in semen. There is also a split between more professionalized layers and the rest. What do you think is really behind the phony concern over brain drain? The lifestylist performance poets are joined by some higher-income people who rarely give a shit about other countries getting bombed, but are now "very concerned" about the supposed damage done to other countries by their best and brightest coming to the richer country, taking a few of those respectable professional jobs, and sending tons of money back home.

You seem to believe an immigrant working a hard physical job where you follow a handful of orders barked at you five hundred times a day will suddenly learn the language. They don't. The work is exhausting, people coming from the same region as you will constantly babble at you in your in the native language during breaks, so you won't even speak the country's language much after two or three years. Organizing gets harder the more languages you have to cover. The doctor lobby in the US literally restricts how many qualified doctors can migrate to the US.

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Why does everyone seem to forget that 4chan had always been a leftist website before Trump trolled them and appropriated their shit

They were liberals that supported Ron Paul.

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imagine actually making pretend to care about brown reggaton spic children lmao

Who country?

Norway

Nothing phony about it, it's critically hampering development in countries of origin. Just because professionals have cause for complaint doesn't mean there is no issue there.

Whenever someone speaks of empathy, reach for your revolver.

You're not gonna build a mass party by preaching to people about how they have no right to complain because others have it even worse. This is akin to the typical idpol pap labeling the white members of the working class as inherently reactionary, or assorted garbage.

Kvar?

You are mindlessly repeating anti-immigration propaganda that is spread by the better off professional layer for their own benefit.

They seem like pretty clear and concise demands to me.
The kind of people who get "turned off" by these things are the kind of people who are either too bourgie or racist to ever choose our side anyway, and we don't even need them in the first place.

The only leftist policy proposal is the destruction of the US and other imperialist powers

turn away who? Boomers sympathetic to ICE? Good luck recruiting them

this is needed more, if anything. The advanced of the workers will join the left, the intermediate needs to be struggled with, and the backwards/reactionary needs to be isolated and purged.

Not when you collectively bargain. More workers means more weight to bring your demands to bear. The onus is on the working class to see through the false necessity of competition and instead cooperate and organize toward collective action.
You should be showing solidarity for your fellow worker and doing everything in your power to thwart their deportation and other instruments of coercion over them. This includes pushing for the dismantling of a coercive anti-worker institution such as ICE.

"Open Border now" is just bullshit woke performance like MAKETOTALDESTROY.

Silly workers! The onus is on you to learn 40 languages. And all it takes to do that is to become aware of having to do it.

Only by an authentic worker's movement that confronts the left, of the type of the Yellow Vests or something. All leftist tendencies have been degenerated into subcultures.

MLs just LARP and won't accept any new concepts.
Trots sell newspapers and write articles, basically LARPing as Lenin before 1917.
Anarchists are punks and bums.
Leftcoms post naked anime girls on Twitter.

huh?

Hemmelig.

You're just repeating the other guy's points. Of course they should be unionized. If they were, this wouldn't even be much of a problem. My point was that IN PRACTICE, it's harder to encourage migrant workers to unionize because of language barriers, their lack of knowledge regarding labour regulations, distrust of authorities (sensible, but over-exaggerated and encouraged by scumbag employers), and one point that I didn't bring up before - slave wages by Norwegian standards are pretty cozy by Polish/Hungarian/whatever standards. Many work in Norway and send the money back home. All this reduces incentives for unionizing, not to mention their employers exploiting and preying on their conditions.
This has been known and warned about by unions for years, but the neoliberals keep shilling for labour migration because "muh fluid labour market" and "muh competitive economy" (that alone should tell you something).

I respect migrant workers (and I've worked with several from the former East Bloc who seem pretty fucking based tbh), but that's irrelevant to the effects of labour immigration under capitalism. We need to deal with the situation as it is, not as it should've been in an ideal world.

You guys are incredibly naive or out of touch if you think only boomers are sympathetic to the police state. Most people in the US are pro-police. Even amongst millennials you’ll find a lot of those fashy thin blue line bumper stickers. Most people in the US have been raised with police state propaganda, so when you say “abolish ice” and “open borders now” without an actual plan of how to replace these things, they’re going to be turned off and just think you’re an edgy antifa cuck.

ICE doesn't need to be replaced. It was created in the early 2000s. It can be abolished fairly easily.

It can be gotten rid of with legislation, but good luck running a political campaign to do so. The overwhelming majority of both parties in Congress support ICE.

Why would we want to replace ICE?
I really think you're severely overestimating the supposed damage these slogans are doing, the media shapes the rhetoric and opinions of the masses, even if we got rid of problematic idpol lib losers and did something dumb like appealing to racists and petit bourgeois the left would still be constantly criticized.

So you’re naive. Thanks for clearing that up.

have you thought for two seconds, maybe there is a difference in how black and brown people view and generally perceive the police, vs how whites see the police? Maybe, just maybe, this can be the reason for them accepting slogans like Abolish ICE, which the whites won't support because they are beneficiaries of a fascist police system.

this is the reason I distrust the white left. So many of you try to do this, rather than reach out to the people who are actually persecuted by ICE and harsher policing.

Shut up idpoler

Leftists here that reject "Abolish ICE" reject it because it's merely a slogan and no political program, not because they care for ICE or the police. That is, it's meaningless and manipulative, and it sounds that way to anyone who cares about things other than slogans.

Where? I've never seen direct appeals to racists or petit bourgeois by crediting either's understanding of the world. At best, it's a recognition that they're perceiving something, albeit incorrectly, and, for example, placing race as a social construction created within the context of class warfare. This isn't reactionary.

ICE literally should be abolished.
It's not just a slogan you hypernormalizing shitbird.

Where did I disagree? All I'm saying is that it's an utterly meaningless slogan, either implying a change without a difference (there won't be a capitalist nation-state without border controls, so ICE will be replaced by something else doing the same thing) or the establishment of socialism worldwide, in which case that should be made clear.

How is it utterly meaningless? ICE isn't some integral part of the government since it's only been around since recently, you can abolish it pretty easily.
Do you even comprehend what the concept of a slogan is?