Incels and feminism

Why isn't the feminist, or internet left in general response to incels to point out that large parts of their problems are caused by patriarchy?

The tendency seems to be Jumping straight to the "you're alone because you're a bad person" thing which seems analogous to telling a prole to get a better job- i.e no systemic analysis. Aside from the apparent lack of empathy, it's going to re-enforce whatever mental patterns put them into their position, and push them into whatever aut-right rabbit hole is willing to acknowledge them.

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that's stupid anyway. the reason incels exist is capitalism.

Radical feminist idealism is cancer and all, but this equivalence is false, and only serves to exacerbate the stereotype that leftists literally do not believe people are ever responsible for themselves.
What makes incels cancer isn't that they're ebul soggynists, it's that they lack the emotional maturity to even comprehend the idea that they are imperfect. They frequently come off as dangerous sociopaths that think socialization is some kind of game and not about fostering connections with other people, masturbatory nonsense that doesn't reflect the mindsets of most sexually and emotionally repressed people. Even if you remove the identity connotations, their ideology has strong lumpen vibes to it.

Because incels aren't desirable, and virgins fit society's conception of a 'socially acceptable target', so they naturally get shit on more. That's what it comes down to.

No amount of complex theory will invalidate this simple fact of social conditioning.

I don't agree with this. Many of them are obviously overflowing with self-loathing.

I have seen a lot of this. I think it's a result of long isolation. Shitting on them seems like it would entrench this mindset.

Well, yeah. I'm not advocating for adoption of incel thought.

It's an actual lack of empathy. Feminist = man hater, don't be fooled

They do, and at the same time they also say patriarchy priviliges them, and imply/say that they are the cause of it.

After paying attention to incels a bit here and there and stumbling on certain examples of their behavior, I've come to an extremely inconvenient (for feminism) conclusion about the origins of incels. They're not actually inherently unattractive for the most part, but they identify as unfuckable and go to great lengths to make themselves appear disgusting while raging at the opposite sex. Their behavior is a (perhaps magnified) male version of how some women respond to being sexually abused by men. The difference is that these men and teenage boys have no ability to talk about it openly so they have to sublimate this trauma in a way that even others like them won't mock. That kind of experience instills a sense of trash-ness in a person, and all this nitpicking aspects of their physical body or whatnot is a rationalization of that.

At the very least if we're to be materialists we need to look at what situation or experience would prompt this behavior, rather than simply judging those behaving poorly as just bad people.

If incels had some sort of real-life community, then their problems around virginity probably wouldn't be so amplified. IMO, it's about modern social alienation.

Life has many shit aspects, but if you have real-life friends to talk about it with, it puts seemingly large and threatening problems into perspective.

There's a pretty funny old radio show that I listened to, which aired in the early 2000s, and one of the hosts basically couldn't get laid and he had various problems with dating and he would talk about it on the show, but it was in a humorous context and played for jokes. I feel like something is missing from the lives of incels : a way to blow off steam without being ridiculed. (Incidentally, that very same radio show host became a well-known british comedian and TV show producer, so I'm pretty he fixed his dating woes.)

Well for one thing this is actually true for a lot of them. Sure, some of them are genuine uggos who are getting rejected because people can be shallow, and others may be genuinely socially awkward. But many more are just average looking people who aren’t getting laid because they are unpleasant to be around, usually because they’re self righteous dipshits who think they are brilliant geniuses who are owed sex. Incel culture as a whole is also massively reactionary, even by liberal standards.

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fake news

As someone who once fell under that category but managed to escape it I don’t think the problem is as simple as explaining to them how patriarchy excacerbates a lot of the problems they are experiencing, bear in mind that to a lot of them feminism is seen as this cospiracy against men and the root of all their problems. What allowed me to escape that mindset was going to therapy, making progress on my self image and personality and making some friends. I think by and large these people suffer from deep seated psychological issues and in less they themselves make the effort to go get help trying to point out the flaws in their line of thinking is a practice in futility.

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As a former "incel-lite" (I had all the mannerisms of an incel and was active in incel communities, but never was explicitly misogynist), I can confidently say that the incel mentality is born out of severe sexual frustration that results from a misunderstanding or naivete about sexual relations between men and women.

Dudes that haven't had many "girl friends" in their lives enter the dating scene thinking that they are attractive enough to land a partner and all they have to do is be nice, funny, interesting, etc. When they repeatedly fail humiliatingly, they can go in one of three directions;

1) Read the "FAQs" and treat dating like a game or logical problem (PUAs and the like)
2) Blame their failure on women and society, and become incels
3) If they aren't abnormally obsessed with getting their bar slimed, move on and mature

Which path they take obviously depends on pre-existing personality traits.

I took the incel road after failing repeatedly with dating, but I eventually got out and became a normal human being by putting dating to the side and getting better friends and intellectual pursuits (not a conscious decision btw).

Blaming the problems of the incel on the patriarchy just seems like "left-incelism" to me. What you are essentially doing by that is conceding the core tenants of the mindset, i.e., sexual hierarchy and "you are undesirable", but just shifting the blame towards a new target.

The incel mindset is a spiral that is hard to break people out of, but if we are going to try to redpill them our best bet is to reveal to them the truth about dating, which is

- Most of dating is repeated humiliating failure in hope of success, and this is true in one way or another for everyone, no matter how conventionally attractive they are
- Whether or not a particular person is attracted to you depends on an incredibly complex network of previous experiences in that person's life, and you can never hope to understand that nor reliably make yourself attractive to them
- You will need basic social skills and respect for women before you can hope to succeed
- It may seem bleak and torturous, and it is, but you will get there eventually

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why do incels need to be babied so much?

All I can say is that I don't appreciate being accused of having a "shitty personality". Maybe I'm a bit boring i dunno. But my personality is not shitty. At least not shitty enough to be a permanent incel. I make male friends very easily among other men in my age group and older menopausal women.

Feminists hate us because we tell the truth about female attraction and because we are inherently destabilizing to the status quo.

I hate to break it to you but you're still an incel, even if you don't identify as such.

Back when I was a kid there was option
4) Blame your failures on yourself and become depressed.

What fascinates me is how late capitalism created this all-permeating victimhood status and corrupted in this generation with it.

Where's good old self-deprecation? Where's the sense of guilt? Wallowing? None of this is available, because everything must have an immediate answer or an applicable solution: either go "FAQ mode" and treat people as a means to an end, or have an epiphany about how the evil patriarchy/matriarchy is against you.

Their problem is that they can't get laid and that is actually the result of patriarchy weakening and men losing part of their sexual access to women. Women's lot has been greatly improved, but obviously their are some "losers" - men who have lost the privileges they had under patriarchy and can't appeal to more educated and independent women. It is wrong and the result of oppressive forces that society holds virgins like in contempt, but incels tend to want to "solve" their "problem" with some form of sexual slavery which makes them very unsympathetic.

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Attractive males have people approach them.


Literally just be good looking and have some social status


Kek, if this were true then there wouldn't be so many fatherless kids running around.


Doubtful after 25.

These two are barely connected. Sure, men might have had more self-confidence due to their entitled status, but women were just as well equipped to turn off their advances if wanted to. There were crippled incels (Kierkegaard, Nietzsche) and volcels (Kant) and mommy-issues types (Schopenhauer) back in those days as well. The most prominent change is the complete commercialization of love. These pickup artist types basically think that sex is a service that is a bit trickier to purchase. People (both genders) are incapable of love, they have been infantilized indefinitely and a very few of them grow into a proper human being exactly because there is no direct route to "git gud".


I'm at best a 6/10 and I had several women approach me because I have a personality.

Here we go, incels inceling up the thread.

You're somewhat attractive and have status. Where is the contradiction here?

Fucking moron.

No they don't. The existing societal norm is already established as males having to take the initiative. Even in femdom, male subs have to find female doms and take initiative. Females approaching males is the exception, not the norm where I live. It may differ where other people live, but we can only speak subjectively.
Vast oversimplification of how people understand concepts such as sexuality, romance, attractive features, taboos, ect. Of course I would expect reactionary movements like incels to generalize all of the complexities of individuals down to nothing, in their typical nihilistic self-defeatism.
That is part of the atomization of society brought on by capitalism, and the material realities of raising a kid and maintaining a wife in the significant stress experienced by the proletariat in their daily lives, largely due to the wealth they lack. Any single unexpected expenditure can bankrupt a family and make them homeless. But in typical self-centered fashion, incels think it's the feminists or whatever.
There is nothing for ill-tempered defeatists who hate the people he wishes would love him.

Also nice reddit spacing.

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Yes yes, my 5ft indian friend has a supermodel girlfriend. Take that incels!

Just take a shower, walk up to a girl, give her a firm handshake and ask her to be your girlfriend, while getting a haircut, sweaty.

Answer this sincerely, do you think women are psychic? You can demonstrate status by being the most prominent person in a social setting. You're mistaking personality for charisma, which normally comes from status.

I know you people just wanted to rag on incels in a circlejerk, sorry for being a counter opinion!


Women are always approaching attractive men in clubs/parties/gatherings. They make it FUCKING OBVIOUS that they like you. If this has never happened to you then that says more about you than reality.


So what's your point here? That misogynist men can't get girlfriends? It's just poor circumstance? What about all the sexual abusers in hollywood and all the neo-nazis with girlfriends? You're a naive retard.

There was tremendous social and economic pressure on women to marry. Life would be very hard for most women who chose not to. Some remained single anyway, and some people remained lifelong virgins, but it was much less common than it is today. There certainly wasn't anything as widespread as the incel ideology. With education and employment now available to women, they just don't need men as much. Under socialism, this would be even more true. You would likely see just as many if not more men not having sex, the difference being that there wouldn't be any stigma attached so they would be more stable mentally.

the reality is that a sexual market is a free market, i mean even on a base level the marketing is unhealthy (beyond physical fitness which is the one thing I agree with is good), it pushes 'healthy teas' (which are potentially untested laxatives) to women so they can get slimmer and tempts guys to go roid up (leading to a potential heart attack like zyzz).

Going up to the mental level it pushes those that can get all the sex to just use people for sex, or worse, treat those desperate for sex as toys/assets to be wrung and thrown away

Obviously post revolution this would'nt be so bad, since the perfume/fashion/online d*ting industries would be near dead, and we would go back to more natural forms of attraction (common interests, fitness, accomplishments etc.) as opposed to swiping right, buying tonnes of makeup and consistently buying supplements to be at 15% bodyfat

It does happen, tho not as directly as men do it. Women give hints you have to be able to detect and act upon if you wish.

Incels usually just reproduce MTV "reality": bitchez wunt red ferraro and big bucks an shiiiet. No wonder they can't into the bagine if they live in fantasy land. People (both genders *shock*) want intimacy, mutual trust, excitement, care and kindness… No wonder that incels spin this into "bitchez wunt ur money and status," because lacking the capacity for the former they resort to the universal (and totally inhumane) values of capitalism.


Except if you are a good person you don't wish to "demonstrate" anything. You just are. Only those with the deepest insecurities feel the unending pressure to perform, show off, act as some kind of ideal. It is truly infantile, like when a kid tries to grab his mother's attention.

You are just showing how deeply damaged you are.

I'm just responding honestly, mane.

Literally have never seen it.
Depends on the woman. Some are more anxious and shy about their feelings, others are fairly comfortable expressing them in varying degrees of openness. Again, vast generalizations of the entire other half of the species.
I mean, I have a fiancee so, guess I did something right.
Simply put that the way capitalist society functions causes the destruction of communities and relationships due to the demands put onto you by material factors.
Not the obvious ones.
"Circumstance" is a swear word in this usage of it mister, along with the words, "astrology," "herbal tea," and "luck." So watch it, Potty Mouth."
As for the decadent bourgs, it's their material worth they have. They can happily end careers and bankrupt people, deny jobs and livelihoods, so they abuse this power to their own ends as always.
As for the neo-nazis, there are plenty of weird fucked up women.

What the fuck is this moralism bullshit? All men seek to "demonstrate" themselves in one way or another, whether through occupation, hobbies or some vulgar display of might. You sound really enlightened friend, above the petty human issues! Do you listen to sam harris?

And you never answered my question.

I'm not going to argue against your anecdote, it's honestly sad that you think women still never approach men. You must be living in a cave.

Your points about "obvious" misogynists not getting girlfriends is beside the original point, a red herring. You said you need to respect women to get a girlfriend, now you retract that because of the sheer idiocy when you look at what actually happens.

Being a mentally and emotionally developed, independent person who feels secure with himself isn't "moralism". It's the state of fully constituted personhood, something that capitalism corrupts through atomizing the individual, turning his culture into commodities, etc.

Not in the unhealthy sense you mean it.

Jfl. Talk about infantile worldviews. This is divine right of kings tier reasoning. Basement level I.q. right here folks.

They can, sadly, but shouldn't.

And I'm guessing you're the grand arbiter of what's healthy/good? You see how this subjective nonsense doesn't help right? If an incel continues failing having followed your advice on being a "good" person, then you'd conjure another moronic excuse for why they still fail. Like they gave off "creep" vibes, yet that may be the natural behavior of the incel - then what is he to do? People like you make incels become more schizophrenic and mentally unwell, because you keep saying there's something wrong with their mind when they simply aren't attractive enough.

I didn't say I have sex, exactly because I'm not after sex. I'm after meaningful human relationships.

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Sorry I live in a backwards ass Southern state I guess.
Also, you need the perception of respect, which you can get through manipulation, which is what most abusive relationships are. I would know, I experienced one growing up. You falsely assume it deviates from the central thesis, when it in fact shows that it is still important, but it can be temporarily subverted by manipulators.

No, but it is pretty fucking obvious that incels are deeply damaged and infantile individuals.

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You don't even need to show fucking respect to women superficially. Many womanizing men get into "relationships". Many men who have been known to disrespect and abuse women STILL get into relationships. Look at the entire fucking rap/hip-hop scene, fuck look at the rock scene and their groupies. What a joke you are.

Misogyny manifests itself in different ways. A lot of women unquestionably sympathize with and enable misogyny, but it's usually more subtle than what incels tend towards (up to eliminationism).

...

It is undeniable that there is a type of hysteric masochism in some women. I'm really put off by "choke me daddy" types, tho.

Honestly don't even bother with these people, just enjoy the memes and embrace the ldar lifestyle.

IT'S NOT ME WHO IS WRONG BUT EVERYBODY ELSE!!!!!!!!!
WOMEN DON'T WANT ME BECAUSE THEY ARE BICCHEEEZ!!!!!!!!!!!
MOMMY, MILKIES, NOW!!!!!!

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Lol the sheer fucking irony is now laid bare. Still have the gall to call others infantile?

Women don't like me because the patriarchy has been dismantled and i am unattractive. Do you not know how to read?

Yes, because there are always people who believe that they have changed, or think they can change him, ect. Hell, it's a common societal and storytelling trope. Not to mention certain aesthetic allures, like the idea of rebellious non-conformative relationships in the groupie scene or other poly relationship types (not to say poly relationships are invalid, mind). Like always, there are plenty of interesting societal and cultural influences that cause these behaviors that could be explored from a rational and materialist perspective, but you desire only the simplest of answers and generalizations to reinforce your own worldview. Of course it is expected of reactionaries, it's inherent to their worldview that nuance is the enemy.

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Yes. That's right. Me and many, many others.

This is what is meant by a shit human being, just so you know.

So why not be happy for the liberation of women, as a progress-minded individual?

Nah, incels have always existed, where do you think all those sexually repressed monks came from?

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Being honest with one's self and grounding your worldview in reality are almost universally considered commendable traits. In any event plenty of shitty but attractive men have more relationships than they know what to do with, so you're doubly wrong.

Sexual inequality is massively destabilizing from a societal standpoint and will lead to a regression to open barbarism.

Many weren't celibate at all, but the ones who were clearly couldn't claim that anyone forced them, as incels claim women do to them.

Religious memery

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But what is happening is true sexual equality, where men and women have equal agency.
Clearly the opposite of the truth. Societies where women are liberated are far less violent than those where they are not.

Liberals aren't welcome here maybe try Zig Forums

By what metric? Something tells me if you were to compare the murder rate of any city in western hemisphere to the murder rate of any city in the mena region you'd be in for quite a surprise.

The irony.

Let's be honest, friend. You are a completely shitty human being who rationalized his shittiness to himself thus ensuring that he remains shitty. At least have the decency to admit that you enjoy being shitty. It's comfy. It's familiar. It's warm shit all over your body. Society is just unjust for not celebrating your shitty ways.

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Literally any city? Why the western hemisphere and why cities? Why not in Asia or the former eastern bloc? And why the MENA and not South America or Africa or South Asia? Why murder and not other acts of violence? Without knowing the result, the comparison is largely meaningless. You have to compare the whole country at least, not just one city.

I'm not especially shitty. Not any more shitty than anybody else honestly. I am definitely unattractive and physically unappealing. That much is true. I'm definitely less shitty than all of the attractive chads who beat their gfs to a pulp that much i can say for sure.

I think you're just a really stupid person who buys into the whole just world fallacy.

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How is he shitty though? At worst he's self-sabotaging.

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Meh. I'm not even going to bother you're clearly not interested in a good faith convo.

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Being wrong doesn't make someone a bad person. He said coercive structures used to exist and no longer do, and that without said structures no women will want a relationship with him. That's just self-loathing.

Fine, but don't think it's evidence of anything that x place has a lower rate of homicide than x other place. There other forms of violence like rape, state terrorism, actual armed conflict going on that have nothing to do with the homicide rate.

Not with incels.

A better comparison would be the same society as women's education increases.

What does that mean? Deciding someone is a bad person because you have preconceptions says more about you than about them.

Correlation =/= causation

And you call yourself a communist?

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He didn't say or imply that.

You can put back your tripcode any moment now.

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Look, I'm the other person you were arguing with. Ignore socdem, he's like a strawman for incels. I don't want women to be subjugated or even desire the forced monogamy bullshit. I think men and women have been subjected to harsh gender segregation from youth and every interaction is always transactional under capitalism: "What can you give me?" "How do I get you?".

If boys and girls interacted more all throughout youth then this incel shit wouldn't exist because men could empathize with women. They can't now because we mostly interact when sex is on the table.

Correlation may = causation if there's a convincing reason. In this case however, I'm arguing that a simple comparison of the murder rate between two cities wouldn't be evidence of a more peaceful society.

Who's we?

I came back into this thread only to laugh at you.

You are completely incapable of self-reflection, right?

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Unto the pure all things are pure, m8.

Alright I get it you are special and enlightened, statistics don't apply to you.

Nobody will sleep with me because I dress like I'm on day release and this is the fault of feminists and alpha males.

If by "we" you meant "us, men, and them, women" you are portraying how delusional you are. "We" interact with eachother every day: in shops, in the workplace, in the family, on the street, at parks, on the bus. Only a tiny segment of this is openly sexual.

You are so completely fucked in the head.

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you don't want their eyelashes to tickle your iris lad?

is good for eye

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I'm not talking about cursory interactions, I'm talking about getting involved. Most men become friends with men, most women become friends with women. Is that controversial?

I'd argue that I overdosed on objective self reflection. In any case I'm much more self aware than whatever just world bs you cling to. Have a nice day.

You overdosed on vaccines you fucking autismo.

Like clockwork.

Implying that exists. Making this part of your identity will make it true.

en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reality_tunnel

Have a shower and just be yourself.