BadMouse rips apart the CPGB-ML because of IdPol

How many % of the population are LGBT?

I take a contrarian position for Zig Forums in that I think one reason the left went into decline (well, there were many reasons) is that identity and class diverged quite dramatically, with the former moving over to the liberals and class remaining the arena of cobweb-filled Trot attics. This has been coming back together however and the left in developed countries is more of a thing now than any point in my lifetime, and probably even my boomer dad's lifetime or since he was a kid a half-century ago. This is happening as idpol is apparently "worse than ever" which I hear around these parts. But it happened because Marxists started reintroducing Marxist ideas into feminism and so on.

Probably not, and Juche stans are a little bizarre, but I'm looking around and I do not appear to live in the DPRK. The worst LARPers in my view are people who try to emulate the social values of 1980s East Germany or whatever.

Who gives a shit.

So, pro-LGBTQ+ rights then? Because that's what the SED promoted in the 80s.

Anyways, CPGB-ML, whatever… "cultural right-wing" politics should be opposed as the trash that it is. Into the garbage bin you go, and I'm terribly sorry that I have to toss you into this bin, but I'm afraid you've left me with no other option. What the left needs is a sense of discipline, duty, sacrifice, collective subordination and honor – which I don't think are inherently right-wing concepts.

If you want to see what the alt-right does, if you're so keen to emulate them, it's to look at the neo-Nazis in the U.S. at Charlottesville. Contrast all the blustering, threats, "Black Lives Splatter," etc. with the weepy denials and buck-passing that resulted after just one person was killed. That's cultural right-wing cowardice with no sense of discipline, duty, sacrifice, collective subordination or honor. In fact, they are undisciplined, are unwilling to take real risks, and do not back each up and they have no fucking Klingon honor. And on the contrary it was the left exercising these virtues that stopped them including a willingness to hold one's ground and sacrifice, such as the woman who was willing to sacrifice her life.

Okay I stand corrected. That's great!

Attached: hqdefault (1).jpg (480x360, 48.76K)

I mean its a simple tactical decision if some weird looking trans person in the front of the demonstration alienates 10 potential converts (and i guarantee you that they do) then why still pander to this subgroup? What i'm saying is that i simply don't see how their struggle is in any way connected to my struggle, the fight for communism. The way i see it, they are an objective hindrance and one of the major problems of the left rn is that its basically hijacked by the LGBT Community. These people do everything they can to convince me that i need them… but more and more i dont think so.

The problem is the radical left keeps quite literally ripping itself apart over an issue that affects 0,01% of the population. Is the equivalent of discussing whether or not students or oriental studies are bourgeois or not, completely ridiculous

I suppose the way I see it, if you're willing to dump socially undesirable people just like that then you're not a communist.

There are no tactical decisions on the liberation of the proletariat. There is complete social liberation or there is revisionism and caving to social reactionaries

Exactly. Moreover the left keeps alienating like half of the population by pandering to a fraction of a percentage of it.

I mean theres socialism which means common ownership over the means of production and central planning of production. This is the system that will make life better for me and 95% of people on this planet. And yeah if i have to disregard 1 random percent to get there why not. Their liberation is going to become much easier under socialism anyways so…

Maybe they also forgot that DPRK has not cancelled CPGB-ML and even sends their UK ambassador to meet with them and give speeches on certain occasions.

They decriminalized homosexuality before the West did. Maybe Albania would be a better example.

If you were Che in the 1960s and had some prejudiced opinions because you didn't know much beyond shooting gusanos in the head then you'd be forgiven, but if you deliberately sell people out like this then you'll sell anyone out, which makes you a revisionist and a coward

The kind of people who are social reactionaries are the kind of people who won't fight for communism to begin with, because they don't hold communist values. Communist values which include social liberation.
That's the kind of social bargaining that would lay the rot in the foundation of the USSR.

#whoa

Attached: whoa.jpg (232x173, 7.5K)

This is complete nonsense. First, LGBT is a large part of society, and even larger is the portion that supports LGBT. By whining like CPGB-ML is doing, they're indeed alienating half the population.

I dont sell people out. LGBT workers can fight for, should fight for, and will benefit from socialism just like all workers. what i'm saying is, their struggle of social acceptance is unrelated to the class struggle and therefore shouldn't be taken up by communists as a pet issue like it is now.

Come on.

"LGBT" altogether is probably about 6% of the population at best.

idpol is relevant but has become too much in some ways

Please tell me you don't call yourself a materialist

I've never met a person who would make their choice whether or not support XYZ organisation based on what this organisation thinks about autogynephilia or whatever.

4.5 % according to williamsinstitute.law.ucla.edu/visualization/lgbt-stats/?topic=LGBT#economic but of course that includes anyone who is gay, lesbian or "bi" which means almost nothing nowadays (every 2nd college aged white chick is "bicurious") and is obviously not in any way as marginalized as trans people are.

Their persecution as a minority, like all minorities, is an extension of capitalist social hierarchy and intrinsically interrelates to the material struggle. There is no fighting for material change without fighting for the end of this bourgeois societal arrangement.

Please don't tell me that you don't think the superstructure of society is modeled in such a way to support the material base of society through things like social and racial hierarchies.

Shouldn't the commie calculus be based on what action will bring us closer to socialism and communism (and saving the planet and humanity). if educating people on gay right alienates more people than it brings in behind this goal by making us look like liberals then it is not worth it. Imagine when the planet burns and is uninhabitable for third of humanity, but at least we have marginally better LGBT rights. Any identity in the end is irrevalent in front of the revolution, because we are on the fucking clock and it doesn't matter because there are no minorities or identities to be liberated if all of humanity is dead. Or if somebody can convince me that idpol actually speeds up the saving of humanity from climate collapse by pandering to every little identity that there is instead of concerning ourselves with the things that unite everybody including LGTB people.

At least they left out ridiculous bullshit like "queer", which effectively lets every heterosexual LARP as a deviant.

Bruh if the communist party of Cuba can tolerate a pride parade every year and make it law that you can't discriminate based on gender identiry or sexual orientation surely a first world party can

I need some proof of that. There is nothing in your LGBTQ+ identity that physically or mentally constitutes you differently from straight people, so I don't see how capitalism "enforces" homophobia or whatever. Capitalism isn't feudalism, a black trans person is valued by the capitalists by the reproduction cost of their labour-power, not by what they like to stuck their dick in at night.

That is a pretty bold assertion but as far as i an tell their struggle is one of acceptance, which means it is a struggle against the majority of society, including workers. I think an importnat cue here is the comparatively high level of acceptance that the LGBT community gets from the ruling class; they are more accepted than black people for fucks sake, which is a subset of the population more than 10 times as large and much more oppressed as far as i can tell.

I agree with this.

AFAIK the CPGB-ML has no plans to outlaw homosexuality or whatever. They just don't like LGBTQ+ parades sponsored by Coca-Cola.

Feminism is reactionary
LGBT activism is reactionary
“reverse-”racism is reactionary
All of these are class-collaborationist and weaken the division of society along class lines in favour of identities. I am disapppointed that even here there are so many defending it. They are probably, young, educated, middle-class urbanies who are the greatest enemies of the proletariat and the same type of epole who were behind the “””democratic””” colour-revolutions in the 80s in actually socialist countries because they wanted sexual liberalism like in the capitalist west.

that's it, you can't achieve communism while keeping the superstructure of bourgeois capitalist society. By necessity you have to eliminate the social divisions of the proletariat through education and social liberation or else the proletariat cannot stand as a united ruling class for the dictatorship of the proletariat. One crack in the foundation of communist social liberation can mean the social order itself breaking down.

Also you vastly overestimate the social reactionaries and their inability to accept trans people. I've converted like 5 anti-trans reactionaries and they are wholly fine with trans people once they do away with their reactionary understanding of society and its norms.

All social divisions at their very least is utilized as a way to divide the proletariat and obfuscate the nature of the class war waged upon them, instead of allowing for whole social and material liberation they instead give piecemeal social change which fundamentally changes little. To not stand for all the proletariat is to give porky the ability to say "look, these mean communists don't really stand for a united working class, they exclude (x)". It allows them to masquerade as social progressives and leftists as they enforce their military state, whereas if we are proper leftists and embrace the whole working proletariat, porky can only drop the mask and reveal the true oppression of capitalism and enforce it with the hard power of the state, not the soft power of the social control they would hold over LQBTQs and their allies. The later is immensely more useful to our ends, as it lays bare the contradictions and oppression of capitalism to all people.

I just wanna make one thing clear and i think i speak for all the "anti-LGBT-idpol" people in this thread: We all want complete Liberation for LGBT people, we want education in schools for this issue, gender reassignment make it fucking free, crack down on homophobic violence all of it.
We just believe that the LGBT struggle is, for all intents and purposes, UNRELATED to the class
struggle and should not be taken up as a pet issue, ESPECIALLY when aggressively championing LGBT culture alienates huge sections of the working class.

If you want pride parades to stop being corporate then take state power, or establish guerilla zones. The CPP-NPA-NDF made combating homophobia among lumads and peasants part of its program and they haven't suffered at all for it.
m.youtube.com/watch?v=0kd0FX0xinI

"Sexual liberation" in capitalism just means commodities obscenity, reification of your human relationships into "friends with benefits", turning vaginas and penises into commodities and being able to fuck girls way too young to commit to a relationship.

The GDR had a real sexual liberation.

Bruh gays are mostly workers, Lenin and Stalin supported the Emir of Afghanistan, the Kuomintang, and the liberals in Iran and they weren't communist at all. Working class gays, especially if they're a member of an oppressed nationality get persecuted by cops all the time.

The majority of murderers are workers too you sophist

I think that ATM most people don't give a shit about LGB and it's mostly the T that's the alienating part at the moment.

Not centering the whole movement around them is not equal to "dumping" them

If you aren't willing to work with lumpen elements you're fighting a losing war, watch Battle of Algiers again

shut up terf

Attached: TERF_JK_Rowling_Screen_Shot_2019-06-25_at_11.42.21_PM.png (768x600, 270.47K)

Why are Marxist-Leninist parties so socially conservative? I would vote for the communist party of my country but I found out they are against gay marriage and trans rights.

Attached: 979605ab08289bcc15454d98bebc89983394d8f985cecc34dd2e59e94716cb78.png (909x552, 214.09K)

Are you high on deliriants right now

It's good that libtards like you who put identity above class are filtered out, they are better off without you.

Says nothing about LGBT people or attitudes toward them

Dude I am literally considering studying Chinese next year, I hope I am not tearing the whole movement apart

Would you vote for a communist party that was against white rights?

Attached: Gay.png (423x498, 16.68K)

Epic

Didn't mean to post that picture.

/thread

epic

Pretty much. LGB is a condition, T is a mental illness.

is the current bourgeoisie united as class, without any divisions? Was all of the Russia proletarian and peasantry behind Lenin in 1917. If revolutions done through electoralism(Allah forbid), then we only need a majority. I by other means then not even that. saying that every proletarian will have to get along before we can even have socialism, then humanity will be long dead and stars have gone out before we can start talking about socialism.

This

It's not about identity politics. It's about recognizing basic human rights. That's why most leftists hate tankies like you.

...

Attached: laughing stalin.jpg (620x413, 34.61K)

you will never pass

No he didn’t, his criticism was bald and made no
Because most workers are socially conservative. Anti-idpol is also common in trot groups that aren’t based among students, but based among workers, like the SEP.

Clarify "trans rights".

Except for, you know, the rights to a job, adequate housing, voting for your local soviet

Which country?

Economic liberation is a prerequisite for social liberation. Under capitalism, only the bourgeoisie have it.

Dude Stalinism is when you kill all the people, and put their corpses in gulags.

The middle class to, that is why they have the luxury for idpol.

Greece. We still have communist parties with more progressive agendas but they are not that popular.

Attached: 4db.png (860x650, 59.57K)

The right of trans people to be treated and recognized as their preferred gender and not to be discriminated against.

Nobody, not even the CPGB-ML wants to curb "trans rights" or whatever, depending on what you mean by it. They just don't see the struggle for trannies the primary focal point of what communists should strive for.

I'm personally in a communist party and we have no problem with LGBT people, but we don't care much about it either. Most of our work is based in unions, strikes and maybe getting retirement home workers who have burn-outs at the age of 35 to join a union, we work in worker councils in the automobile industry, if some transwoman walked into one of our meetings and demanded to make everything about them, they would probably be met with hostility. But this never happens anyway because trans people make up like 0,0001% of the population and are only prominent on Twitter or whatever. Most of these guys aren't even having gender dysphoria, they're just sexually confused, being a "lesbian transwoman" is usually a red flag for someone who is just a straight dudebro who finally wants to get some pussy.

What does it, materially, involve?

Attached: 1d7a38b74d35697fc46bc4640c70918d0507e0e2137de4931aa896d9324d0953.gif (303x299, 17.25K)

To be honest, the KKE is a bit of an exception amongst communist parties with their quite literal rejection of gay marriage.

You should care when a gay worker is set up to be raped in jail by the cops.

What about when a heterosexual worker is set up to be raped in jail by cops?

Is it though? Because as dar as I know homosexuality and transgenderism are/were criminalized in most ML states.

Free gender reassignment surgery and hormone treatment, if fucking Ayatollah Khomeini understood this you definitely should

Of course we would care if a gay worker is raped by cops in jail. The same way we'd care if a straight worker is raped by cops in jail. But we wouldn't make sexual violence in prisons, while being a problem, our only and every talking point.

They weren't more criminalized than in capitalist states, and many ML states legalised it before capitalist states, like East Germany for example. It's an issue not relating to the communist movement or class struggle.

How often are straight workers deliberately thrown in a cell with rapists on the basis of being straight?

Not that I'm against gays but rights are a spook and a cop out, we made them up and as such they're manipulated to justify any group's discourse without having to explain why. I can say I have the right to shit on your bed and no one can stop me.

Also, can we please distinguish between homosexuality and transgenderism? The former is about what you like to stick your dick in, the latter is about being born in the wrong biological body. These are both different issues.

I think there are bigger issues at play here than gays being deliberately targeted by the cops.

Saying sexuality isn't related to class struggle is like saying nationality isn't related to class struggle

Is problem here that worker is raped in jail by the cops or that the worker is gay?

They've been pigeonholed into being grouped together by homophobes too long to be separated.

That's not what he means, you're being intentionally dishonest. It's about the social attitudes of workers all somehow being assumed to be some kind of Blue Labour type nonsense when that just isn't actually reality. You see certain values among Working Class people that could be considered "Traditional" but these are all positive values like Family, Community, which all arise from material reality to begin with. If that's Social Conservatism then I guess I'm a Social Conservative and now I have to hate Niggers and Trannies despite having friends who are both, otherwise I'm not a "real worker". In the same way that most Working Class people aren't racist, across races themselves, especially if they're living near other Working people of other races, most Working Class people actually don't really give a shit if you're gay or whatever. Obviously not everyone can use all the correct terms or whatever else that is "Politically Correct" but they are by and large not actually Socially Conservative.

If I'm a worker and I have an LGBT friend, and I see CPGB-ML lacking tact on these issues (yes you can critique idpol without doing what CPGB-ML do), then I'm going to assume that their Solidarity is conditional, and this is after I've gotten beyond their weird Fetishistic aesthetics. Communism is also mostly in ascendancy through those who are Gen X and younger, who themselves as workers are significantly more Socially Liberal than previous generations. This entire thing just shows poor strategy on the party's part for people like Phil Greaves to be openly bigoted towards a literally insignificant fraction of the population, and I say this as someone who likes a fair amount of Greaves takes.

This entire thing is pure Workerism, and worse than this it's also completely transhistorical.

tbh asshole cops would probably target straight guys in this case, because it's humiliation, rather than gay guys who they think "might probably like it". Straight male-on-male rape has been a war crime since antiquity.

Why? Nations are constructs that are clearly related to the capitalist system, how is a guy thinking he's born in the wrong body related to the capitalist system??!

As someone who has actually worked with "traditional blue collar workers" (remember that's not the Marxist definition of workers), they don't give a crap if you are gay or whatever, they don't give a crap which kind of music you hear or what hairstyle you prefer, but they don't want to be berated about heteronormativity either. You do the latter you loose them, this doesn't mean they are homophobes.

Fucking for the last time:

not wanting gays to be killed =/= supporting LGBT parades sponsored by Coca-Cola

You do realize that half of Marxists pre-WW2 were fucking Eugenicists. Communism isn’t a syminome of “Stuff that makes me feel good.”

Their five precent, and half of that doesn’t care about idpol pandering.

No, the "bourgeois societal arrangement” existed in most socialist countries.

This is more of a cultural thing in New World countries.

USSR proves you wrong.

No it isn’t

This is all well and good but there are people in this thread who are explicitly espousing anti-LGBT views because they have an inability to differentiate between bourgeois tactics being used to divide groups of workers and groups of workers themselves. It's Vulgar Materialism.

Patriarchy is clearly related to the capitalist system, which is why ML and MLM movements across the world have made themselves the champions of the emancipation of women, thus people who feel they have been born and pigeonholed into the wrong gender role or sex are related to a similar struggle

I can say everyone has a right to a job and a right to housing without actually giving everyone a job and a place to live, you know.

Do you mean free as in included within free national healthcare or free as in literally anyone can get gender reassignment surgery without any sort of prerequisite?

this boards stance is always ORANGE MAN BAD

Women's bodies are the frontiers of communist liberation; it is no wonder so many male-feminists are also sex offenders