So, how terrifying will 21st Century Fascism be?

I was just about to make thread asking this.
I was browsing /fascist/ yesterday and found pic related.
Thoughts?

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HOT TAKE ALERT
The only reason I see the rise of "fascism" as possible is because there's no real competent worker party and/or movement. What we have is some obscure CP with under 100 members. Most of whom are still stuck in the past.
Then we go to the internet left, most of which is completely ignorant about any sort of theory and history; unable to even say something in response to "muh godzilions", besides "not real socialism". Better yet are tankies who call every bad thing "capitalist propaganda" (no, quoting Grover Furr doesn't make it not real) and denounce people as "Kruschchevites".
Then comes the fact that being in a leftist online space, you need to walk on eggshells.

Compare this to right wing.

Actually manages to feel "pro worker". I can easily tell you that majority of low income people don't have a problem supporting those "fascist" parties, because they offer solutions. They even pretend to be saviors of liberalism. Just look how racism is used to "protect" women: "Muslims need to be opposed to ensure the rights of our women". Then comes the fact those fascist parties don't even call themselves so. No one would vote for the "NSDAP", but "Rassemblement national"? That's a completely other story. Their online spaces, while for smoothbrains, are much more welcoming that the leftist one. I haven't saw one leftist online personality discussed online, yet Stonetoss's comics are anything but unheard of.

Funny thing is that those people who go for the fascism, could be socialist. That's the thing fascism is good at: larping as socialism. Hitler speeches, if you replace the "Jews" with "bourgeoise", sound straight like out of State and Revolution. I've made post in fascist forums pretending to be in the dark - playing the role of an innocent guy who just stumbled on National Soycialism - and found that those people aren't in any way opposed to socialism, they just equate capitalism problems with Jews.

To give credit where it's due, I saw a rise in leftism. On reddit CTH is rather popular and open to people. If you want to see something worthwhile though, there's more effort needed.

What I guess would help is to study the rise of "alt right". Look where it's weaknesses lie, and attack them. The strenghts we should incorporate ourselves.

Thanks for comming to my TED talk

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nothing will come out of it. I'd be suprised if they would even try to set up any specific time for meetup.

The fastest way to stop the rise in fascism in america is definitely appealing to working class whites who are at least ok with some racism.

The thing is these people have probably never seen anti idpol communism, and think communism is deeply triggering and problematic and anti freedom

Yeah probably, but what has me thinking is how much of an influence do places like 4chan and Zig Forums have?
I'd assume obviously a lot, I mean it's places like Zig Forums where these people become radicalized, I know this is literally a fucking shitty Japanese anime image board site and like you said most of these people won't ever organize in real life, but I seriously think there's something that should be done to combat the influence the right has online.

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I disagree. You have to look at imageboard culture as smaller pockets of what is going on in the greater consciousness of society. I think it's significant that the posters posted their state as well as it helps pinpoint the areas where the feelings are more concentrated, especially relative to population size. So, what I get from the image is that Ohio (2 different IDs posted from Ohio in that thread) will be one of the first states to balkanize, to the surprise of everyone involved. Just a roughshod prediction and nothing to really take seriously. But if you start to see things line up, then it's a good indication that the momentum is there and has been there for awhile. Shit, if I was a weapons dealer i'd start buying advertising in Ohio and sell a bunch of guns to these people as they seem to be a vulnerable and prime market for that kinda stuff atm.

genuinely right-wing people hate what's in your image at least as much as you do, and the average american "leftist" is as okay with it as much as the average "conservative" is.

People don’t care ATM. Again, I'm being wild here. Recently it's become obvious that Trump has been losing control of his base. They're getting wilder and wilder. Trump has no choice but to continue to appease them, feed them, and watch them grow into a full fledged fascist movement.

I was thinking about this recently, and it might be possible to attack their extra liberal use of slurs, and not in some kind of SJW "how dare you sir" type of way, but by portraying it as incredibly childish (which it is). I don't exactly know how, but I think it is possible to just mock the shit out of them for this, as at some point all of "nigger faggot" "whitey" "spic" shit they spout stops having an effect and is no more than a 1st grader trying to start some shit with a 12th grader by calling them "poopoo face" or "ur mom gay". The best part would be that any response from the alt right would be just more of the same "shut up nigger". In the end, while there are some IRL white nationalists, the core of the movement is these Zig Forums and 4chan Zig Forumsyps, and if they look like stupid kids to the rest of the internet, they loose their influence. Perhaps some memes with annoyed looking commie pepe being pathetically assaulted by a little apu saying "shut up nigger whitey" might express this well.
Oh and also to my knowledge a lot of these people hold retarded conspiracies (QAnon and shit) close to their heart, so maybe that is another good line of attack

the problem with this is that Apu is too sympathetic by virtue of how adorable he is

When you say Apu are you talking about this nigga?

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probably retard pepe

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Elected officials feel comfortable saying things like "being a white woman makes you a white supremacist" in public spheres. This idea that fascism is right around the corner seems a little ridiculous to me, like the same sort of fearmongering conspiracies that the right engages in to whip its base into action ("Communists control our universities!!!")

But Sakai told me that all working class whites are inherently evil.

but the media has been crying about this forever now.
the only thing we find out is that what you're saying is just hysteria
Even if it were true not many people care about them and they'd care even less the move mass immigration brings down the standard of living.

literally no one is doing this.

you made this up

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this whole statement is just mysticism. As if there is some SECRET KNOWLEDGE that no one knows about (except for you for some reason)
We've seen what holding facilities look like you sound like a radlib trying to equate anything you don't like to hitler.

The same way we have always fought "it" and fought anything.

Through collective organization and mass action of the working class; Strikes, sit ins, direct action.

These are and have always been the answer to all of our problems.

That's more than enough to set something off. Maybe a couple of clashes at a Trump rally. Some guilt-laden Trump supporters lashing out extra-violently. A couple of live-streamed political murders even. This could set off some more external guilt-laden Trump supporters, leading to a chain reaction of violence. Again, all of this, is contingent upon the revelations, with stark imagery, of the border concentration camps functioning as rape/death camps. The men are irrelevant, sadly, as always.
I'm talking about a catalyst, and a reaction. I'm NOT talking about just a reaction. I'm talking about the CATALYST (gut-wrenching imagery) and the possible resulting REACTION (extreme violence, with chain effects). We already know that tensions are high, and if I have to argue for this then we're through.
And no, I'm not claiming that things are happening, but that things could be happening without our awareness because Homeland Security is very secretive. However, we do know that there have been sexual assaults against children by some of the staff of Homeland Security, and that some migrant children have died in the custody of Homeland Security. This is enough to set off some alarms. For one, an alarm about the culture of Homeland Security.

Are you just going to ignore the rest of what I said?

the protests didn't do much to stop the vietnam war. It was the soldiers who through grenades on their officers that ended the vietnam war.

there have been several "clashes" mainly ended with antifa and radlibs getting there asses beat. There is no leftwing presence in modern political FBI.

lol what?

but this isn't hasn't been a "revelation" you are just saying things are happening with 0 evidence

you're talking about a reaction to a situation that doesn't exist.

That is getting into Alex Jones conspiracy theory area.

do you have any proof of this?

but it hasn't set of any alarms so…

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fascism is not viable, all the new technological capacities means fascism will collapse even faster, because all the horrors you list are not productive.

The rest of the world will briefly stop infighting and carve up the USA into the SA.

only works as long as you don't use them, and the others have something to loose, ends like all the other hostage situations, the dude with the trigger-button gets assassinated and the rest gets rushed.

Unlike the USSR in the WW2 era, it's not possible to invade China.
All china has to do to win is not bomb people, People have a strong preference for not exploding, no matter how humanitarian the bombs are.

Did you just attempt to dehumanize a group of people as Untermensh ?

How do we make our space more welcoming ?
Besides stopping with the doom-mongering, you know like this thread

you're talking about renegades?
you're ignoring the presence of a catalyst that I've been discussing. Trump's words are one thing, but rape and harm of the defenseless is another
viral videos of violence that sets off more Trump supporters
how do you know that brown women and children are not likely to be mistreated by the US Govt?
npr.org/2019/02/26/698397631/sexual-assault-of-detained-migrant-children-reported-in-the-thousands-since-2015
politico.com/magazine/story/2019/07/15/border-patrol-trump-administration-227357
Yes, they have. That's why I'm talking about this, for example. People are paying attention.

Maybe, as you think, nothing would happen. But I contend that something very well may, if we receive the catalyst. Now I'm not bothering any longer justifying my 'if' to you as I am certain that you're not so brain-dead as to be incapable of thinking with qualifications.

?

Is being a refugee actually illegal? (I'm not asking about your feelings or thoughts about how it should be, I mean the actual existing laws.)

The US is the Israel of the Americas and actively creates the issues it complains about, change my mind.

Nice moralism. Happens everyday in the thousands at regular prisons, parties etc. people don't care and are not going to do shit. Especially not at the cost of their own cost to living status and having even more excess males competing for females.

can you be more specific

Read Soldiers in Revolt

Like I said you're relying on the reaction of events that aren't happening and even if they did happen hoping the American people would care. Because right now they don't.

I don't know where you're going with this.

Now that is something much different from what you said originally. Suddenly "migrants at the border" has been expanded to "brown women" and "rape and murder" is conveniently "mistreatment"
If you're going to make a claim you have to be able to prove it. Right now you can't

>npr.org/2019/02/26/698397631/sexual-assault-of-detained-migrant-children-reported-in-the-thousands-since-2015
Well your muh Trump argument falls apart suddenly. This is the hypocrisy with liberals like you

I mean if you count shitposting online about it "setting off alarms" then ok but really no one cares.

its not that I think nothing will happen its that nothing has happened. You seem to be completely confused as to why but if you read Marx and had a materialist understanding of the situation you would see why

or you're just too brain dead to be able to prove what you're claiming

being a refugee? No but these people aren't refugees
Illegally entering into a country yes

When you wanted to attend a fascist meetup but:
1. Walmart wouldn't sell you a tiki torch
2. The guys told you to stay at home because you weren't aesthetic enough
3. Your mum wouldn't let you

I've read Marx, and understand what you're saying. But I've also read Lakoff and Searle, and understand that materialism is not the only force driving people to act.

is that all you got?

If I have to repeat myself, and delineate the nuance piece by piece, then yes, that's all I've got for you buddy. You obviously have a very limited tool-set as indicated by your inability - naive even - to grasp what I've been saying. I don't even think you know what a conditional sentence is tbh. After you read Marxian theory, it's a good idea to expand from that. Just some genuine advice.

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well you're ignoring my entire reply so…

This is spot on.
There isn't a single country south of the US-Mexico border which the US hasn't had its hands in. Usually that involves assassinating democratically elected leaders and replacing them with far-right puppets who make life hell for the people.

To put it in meme language:

Is it actually illegal to cross the border by climbing over a fence or wall?

Honestly the competence of the of the new fascist elite will be a lot lower than their predecessors: mostly because the fascist elites of Germany, Italy, Japan, Romania, Hungary et al purged their aristocratic overlords. The current breed of crypto-fascist elite is the equivalent of the aristocratic overlords.

how is this a question

If being a refugee isn't illegal per se, how can such an act be illegal per se?

Lmao faggots ignoring this post. Also, why are reactionary faggots allowed here.

are you retarded

The user is actually right, under international law someone that crosses a border without approval can't actually be convicted of a crime.

A crowbar is often used for an illegal purpose, but that doesn't mean crowbars in general are illegal, it depends on the situation. Point is: If there is a notion in law of asylum for people based on some standard of suffering from serious persecution, then how could that be always automatically nullified by the refugee not following some proper formal procedure, since the country the refugee is fleeing from might not be very helpful here with paperwork if it is actually persecuting him or in the process of getting vaporized in civil war (or both)?

and? the dealings with them are differnet. Doesn't make it legal

lol shitty analogies are not an argument

funny how the original statement was "crossing the border illegally" not "asylum for people based on some standard of suffering from serious persecution"

this is a brand new argument

>I'm not asking about your feelings or thoughts about how it should be, I mean the actual existing laws.

So, is there actually nobody ITT who knows anything about the existing laws, but we all have strong feelings about the matter here?
No it isn't.

sounds like you're just making things up

yeah you completely went on a different angle arguing against something no one is saying

Except the default for an action is legality unless it is illegal. As such, since you cannot make it illegal for someone to cross a border, it can't be illegal.

You did not answer the question: "If there is a notion in law of asylum for people based on some standard of suffering from serious persecution, then how could that be always automatically nullified by the refugee not following some proper formal procedure, since the country the refugee is fleeing from might not be very helpful here with paperwork if it is actually persecuting him or in the process of getting vaporized in civil war (or both)?"

If you admit there's an allowance for persecuted people to stay, and you admit that there's no guarantee that the country where they are from, where they might be persecuted, will allow for a nice and formal migration, it logically follows that you must admit that somebody climbing over a wall or fence (or doing even something more spectacular) is not a proven illegal immigrant just for doing that. So it's not a brand new argument, it connects with the question from earlier: "Is it actually illegal to cross the border by climbing over a fence or wall?" And the correct answer is: That act by itself does not tell you whether the person doing that is an illegal immigrant.

Use less feefees and more logic next time, kiddo. See ya.

yes it can. When someone illegally crosses the border they are apprehended

because they need to follow said procedure for the law to apply to them

who cares this is not our problem

again this isn't our problem

not at all we can turn them right around and are doing so

so you've given up i see

user, I hate to break this to you, but the law applies either way. You can't choose to just not have the law applied to you. You really don't know anything about law.

The USA doesn’t give two shits about international law, they don’t want people entering their country without filling out the proper paperwork or meaning their standards. They have the military force to prevent people from entering, so they will do it.

What about breaking their own laws?

They can't claim asylum if they do not go through the proper channels. Sorry if that hurts your feelings

ou can't choose to just not have the law applied to you. You really don't know anything about law
Seems like you are just ignoring the current state of things

Which ones

Zig ForumsFAGS OUT OUT OUT

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Why are reactionary fags allowed here when they would be shot on sight in any sane socialist regime? Lmao

Its too horrible to even think about. Total information about everything you do AND THINK. Enemy nations are killed to the last child with killer drone swarms. And we can talk about the mass murder weapons that are real and aimed at you.

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Good bring it on because liberalism has worked so fucking well not

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High tier retardation

CRITICAL SUPPORT FOR ADOLPH HITLER

Faggot

Fascist larper

STAPH

I’m not the one defending concentration camps

Lmao why tf do you people even pretend to be socialists?

there are no concentration camps
you're the one defending neolib immigration strategy for low wages

Lmao why tf do you even pretend to be socialist?

t. nazbol

lawfags get the bullet

No, they are enforcing their immigration law, where to move to the US you have to fill out a bunch of paperwork and be fluent in English.

those aren't "concentration camps"

You're defending neolib immigration for low wages
Lmao why tf do you even pretend to be socialist

It will be goofy af, so we’ll probably laugh our asses off while being simultaneously terrified.
In essence, it will be like the film “The Giant Claw”, where the kaiju looks incredibly stupid and the plot barely holds together, while multiple people are mowed to death by its destructive power.

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We're aware.

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GLOBAL
APOCALYPTIC
RACE WAR

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No one is doing this you faggot, and we aren't reformists arguing for mere wage increases. We want the the whole practice of pitting labour against itself to cease, as it is a consequence of the current economic system that we wish to abolish. America created this situation all on its own through its policies in the South America, and if it actually wanted to limit illegal immigration through the ports of entry it actually flows most commonly through (airports, seaports, overstayed visas, etc.) it would institute a functional e-verify system. But I don't see any party pushing for that or calling for an end for imperialism, so here we are.

yes the radlib posing as a tank poster is.

the person I am responding to is an obvious liberal

Yeah I'm not going to reply to the rest of what you said. I understand the Marxist response to this but the tank poster has being spouting liberal talking points about immigration. Maybe your reply is better directed at him.

Given I can't see you're previous post, were you or were you not defending the US's actions here?

I was originally replying to
saying that there is no proof of what he is claiming to be true.
then the tank poster started shitposting at anyone who doesn't support mass illegal immigration as a fascist

I disagree with the analysis of fascism making some kind of "spectacular and horrific" return to America, because it implies things suddenly changed and America "fell into" this. This is how things always have been, it's just been made more obvious and "honest". Now you hear of what the US enagages in, now what was clendestine extrajudicial activity is made law. We didn't step up or move down a stage, we were always here.

He was posting cringe reactionary memes earlier. Typical stuff you'd see on r/The_Donald though and nothing too extreme.

Oiink!

/b2/ raid

Seize the means

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I agree with this. The last couple years in the US have just been making the system explicit, not different. At the moment it helps that Fascist organizing, outside of some more militant groups like Attomwaffen, is a mess and can't sustain itself. Whereas, even if you don't like it, antifa and SocDem organization has only grown in complexity and cohesion.
Zizek awhile ago said that, unlike many European states, the US' state power structure is too asymmetric for any sort of overnight internal coup to actually work.
And as you mentioned, the current would-be Fascists are totally incompetent, and not to mention that globalization has all but eliminated the possibility for the old-school isolationist fascism. There are, by nature now, too many cracks, and power has become harder and harder to centralize.

This isn't to say that there won't or can't be a 21st century fascism, nor that fucked up right-wing terrorism won't occur even more (it's absolutely going to accelerate). But, again as Zizek said, it's going to take the form of something like modern Italy and China, not Nazi Germany: authoritarian Neoliberal Capitalism, with bells and whistles still attached. It'll be interesting too to see how Sanctuary cities develop in the US. Soon enough they'll be seen as Sanctuaries for everyone, the last holdouts for polite Neoliberal society.

The last thing I'll mention is that, at the moment, the conservatives have been completely unwilling to admit basic material discontents. We have to remember that Hitler and Mussolini did want a welfare state in some form and (Mussolini moreso) knew how material conditions are really what drive people. The GOP and American fringe right by contrast do neither of this, not even the so-called Ecofascists do this. Here's where Neoliberalism presents a problem for them, and where Capitalist Realism really comes into play. If you look at contemporary fascist propaganda and rhetoric, you'll realize pretty quickly that the world they're proposing has little to no meaningful difference to the one we currently have. It becomes even more clear when you look back to Italian fascist Futurism: utopian, cohesive society that orders complete control over industry for human flourishing, a complete rejection of any semblance of the "old way of life." Today's propaganda deals with either traditionalist imagery or pictures of urban ruin (Balkan war photos are extremely popular among the right, for example.) Underlying material discontents won't disappear; they'll even intensify, because austerity measures will only continue, not be overturned. Life gets worse for everyone and nothing has fundamentally changed.

You can channel this discontent outward (via war or towards the minority Other) for awhile, but it *cannot* sustain itself. Until the right actually realizes this (and for the moment, they seem far too indoctrinated by Neoliberalism to do this), I find the claims of outright fascism a bit overblown. But shit's scary and bad, that can't be denied.

I don't think earnest race worship fascism is going to return, techno capitalism will easily crush and deflate it imo, but there were a bunch of cringe libtard sjws in weimar germany right before they went full fash, in fact, those cringe libtard sjws are what allowed fashies to galvanize their movement and gain power, because they were so absurdly cringy that everyone could cringe at them racially-collectively together.

If techno capitalism crushes anything in its wake including race worship, logically it would crush people who take from the system more than they put in, which would be majority African and South American.

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It will be fucking awesome with neon swastikas and anime mascots everywhere. Hand drawn Itano circus scenes will make a comeback too.

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