I was raised without a religion. Though simple philosophy I became a theist, while I have always had sympathies for the Roman Empire and what I perceived to be its religion, Eastern Orthodoxy. A couple years ago I decided to go to an Eastern Orthodox parish and a year later was baptized into Orthodoxy.
This morning I feel my motivation for attending church has diminished.
Primarily, I feel that Orthodoxy overall presents itself as a passive spiritual refuge. Its leading theologians praise at the highest a seeming retreat from the world and life of inner contemplative prayer. We discourage all legalisms, are wary of the ability of human reason, and overall function outside of mainstream society, being an "other."
From what I see, however, Catholicism presents itself as an active moral force, not only deeply concerned with the moral health and spiritual status of contemporary society, but also overtly involved in trying to capture society's institutions and guide its moral journey. While mainstream Catholicism with its Vatican II reforms seems lackluster and unappealing (much like the mainstream worldwide "conservative" political parties for example), at the basic level I see Catholicism as functionally capable of capturing the heart and soul of the West once again, which is very important to me. I neither see this as a vision or capability of Orthodoxy.
I still believe that the historical case seems to favor Orthodoxy, but, if my musings are correct, I might find the actual practice and function of Catholicism to be more suited to my needs and desires.
Can you elaborate? Everything I've written is my sincere feelings
Ayden Thompson
i am Orthodox and can't say you are necessarily wrong. I would say that your perception of the fight we are in is wrong. I used to be very involved politically before my conversion to Orthodoxy, howver the more i learnt about Orthodoxy the more disillusioned i became with the political world. I realized that it is not against governments or men we fight but the true princes and rulers of this world. Orthodoxy changes a nation not by the establishment of grand institutions in the country but by the conversion of the people including obviously those who are in power. The mighty Roman Empire was conquered by the Church of Christ by the martyrs who by their repetition of the actions of Christ on the Cross they slew the demons of Rome and converted the empire. That's all i really have to say, i'm sympathetic to how you feel though. God bless you user
Juan Peterson
But what efforts is Orthodoxy making to convert the people? I can only speak for America, but I don't really see this as a priority. Our greatest bishops are mostly concerned with trying to smooth over the various jurisdictions here so we can have a single workable Orthodox church in America, which is a noble goal, but it's still pretty arcane. I don't really see America becoming a nation full of Orthodox Christians anytime soon.
What I do notice is that most people coming to Orthodoxy are converts from Catholicism or Protestantism disillusioned with the moral failings of their old churches. This is fine, but it still only bolsters the fact that Orthodoxy is just a refuge, either for ethnics wanting to practice their traditional religion or converts wanting to escape the flaws of their old religion.
Orthodoxy itself has no grand stake or voice in America.
Grayson Davis
Sure Your idea of the role of the church is centered around it's political power in Western nations, and your criteria include which group can make a better historical case that it bears God's authority. You're looking for some kind of social gospel to correct the degeneration of the west. It's LARPing because the Catholics and orthodox meme to disillusioned redpillers is that they can reclaim some social order that never existed in their systems.
Your church affiliation should be entirely around who teaches the Bible best, and acts accordingly. Does your orthodox or Catholic church go share the gospel, really? When's the last time they invited you soul winning? Have they trained you on gospel sharing methods? Are you 100% certain that you have eternal life?
Brody Young
Anybody that claims to have this certainty is necessarily lying, at the very least to themselves.
I can't speak to the Orthos because I know little of them, but the amount of Catholic proselytizing in the world is huge. This is sounding dangerously close to the JW cult's arguments. Sharing the gospel in first world nations by way of banging on doors at 9AM when most people have access to huge information and media distribution networks is no longer the most effective way to do so.
Chase Thompson
Read Upon This Rock. It gives plenty of evidence to the contrary (both Scriptural and not).
Isaac Green
If you don't know you have salvation, you probably don't
JWs practice proselytizing as a condition for salvation Christians practice missions as the highest instruction, that's why it's the "great commission"
I think the church having political power is crucial. I think the separation of church and state is the precursor to disenfranchising the church, which happened. If the church does not have political power, it is basically saying the church is just something you can choose to do if you want to, but it isn't essential. It's just sort of a club, kind of like freemasonry. Something you can do on Sunday if you want, but not very important.
I disagree with your history. I think all the major churches (Catholic, Anglican, Lutheran, Orthodox) were active political forces in their respective countries and dominated those countries' cultural life, indeed providing social order. I think this is essential. This is what I need now.
I'm not certain I have eternal life as only God can judge me.
Jack Price
What would the point of excommunication be if church was compulsory?
Mason Diaz
It would make it essential for you to repent
Luis Moore
That's just not consistent with the Bible. Christianity is a voluntary exercise. Salvation is a gift that you can choose to deny. I think you're a retard if you're a drunk, or if you don't wear your seatbelt, but it's not my job to stop you by force.
Jonathan Butler
lol evangelicals are the used car salesmen of Christianity, no one actually is saved by you. Getting people to say the sinners prayer doesn't save them and it isn't fulfilling the mandate to baptize and make disciples of all nations. The whole degenerate state of the west is a consequence of your revolutionary philosophy.
Historically the conversion of a nation takes place with saints at the head. The Church as an organization doesn't do much of anything. There isn't much use complaining about how little the Church does, because you are a part of it. Orthodoxy is new in the west and doesn't have the social capital of either Catholicism or Protestantism. These new movements require passionaries who are willing to sacrifice their own immediate comfort for the good of the future, can you do it? if not then it isn't much use complaining about how little the Church does just stay and try and support those who can. What exactly do you expect the Church to do anyway? who exactly in the west in converting to Catholicism and Protestantism? the answer is no one, Orthodoxy is actually making converts our numbers are going down because cradles become americanized and leave and i can tell you that if this whole mess with Constantinople leads to Russia taking a more leading role we will see dramtic changes. Please tell me what exactly it is you think the Church should do?
John Lopez
The Bible is a tool for the church to use, and it has a monopoly on what the Bible says. I'd never be a protestant and I don't think I have anything to gain from further discussion with you.
Second, this is where diving into the original text helps. "Know" in that verse (greek: eideitei) does not mean absolute metaphysical certainty. It's more akin to "knowing" that you're getting off work at 5PM or "knowing" that you're going to ace an exam. Strong belief and absolute assuredness are two different things. Absolute assuredness would also render Philippians 2:12 moot. (Work out salvation with fear and trembling…)
Most self-styled Christians probably have that absolute assuredness.. and they're in for an unpleasant surprise if Matthew 7:13 (narrow is the path…) is anything to go by.
Eli Clark
The LARPer's final form
Landon Gomez
I'd love to see that graph broken down by regular (mass/sunday services/etc) attendance.
I said broken down for a reason. Homo acceptance for those who attend most sundays, homo acceptance for those who do not.
Charles Cooper
Thats not an argument and you know it
Levi Garcia
...
Xavier Bell
Obviously Orthodoxy is pretty new to America. And I do think we have been seeing a turning point in recent decades where it is shedding its foreign and ethnic character.
I guess I just wish there was more for me to do. I wish that Orthodoxy more closely aligned itself with intellectually confronting the ideas that dominate my country (and, by extension, every country) today. I do not want to retreat from the world but embrace it for everything that it is. I believe that Christianity offers a total lifestyle. It is not the rejection of politics but the fulfillment of it; not the turning away from philosophy but the culmination of philosophy; not an escape from society but the backbone of society itself.
I wish I could be part of some sort of institution filled with like-minded people with a zeal to transform society. Sort of like modern-day missionaries.
Juan Foster
Your interpretation of it is
The argument "the Catholic Church is not the monopoly interpreter of the Bible" is made consistent by "apostolic succession and 'designated church' are antibiblical doctrines"
That would be interesting. They publish the data, maybe you could find it Either way, self professed Catholics and 'orthodox' are pro homo and don't go to church with good regularity
Jeremiah Moore
How do you square that with:
If you belonged to the world, it would love you as its own. As it is, you do not belong to the world, but I have chosen you out of the world. That is why the world hates you.
or:
Then they will deliver you up to tribulation and put you to death, and you will be hated by all nations for my name’s sake.
–
The world is fallen, user. Lost. Doomed. Filled with evil. And that's just from a plain reading of the bible, Why would you want to embrace that?
Jaxon Phillips
I mean you're not wrong with that last bit. What that graph tells me is that *at least* 3/5 self-styled catholics are doomed.
Jason Harris
Because I'm not a gnostic. I want to transform the world and make it a better place. I have no interest in retreating from it.
Joshua Gonzalez
Those two verses are from the gospel dude, it's not gnostic shit to realize that the world is fallen. Generally speaking, if the world likes you, you're not Christian-ing right.
Michael Wilson
Not an argument.
Dylan Diaz
The world is fallen, that is why I want to make it a better place, as the church did from its establishment until the 60s. I do not see why because of recent upheavals we should discard Christianity's proud social heritage and now start retreating from the world.
Aaron Moore
I'm asserting a position just like you are Here's the argument if you really haven't heard it
First: you cannot know if you have eternal life. God will judge us according to our deeds and our faith. To think you are automatically saved is beyond being pompous. repent Second: This "soul winning" that presents Christianity as a free for all religion that can be interpreted anyway you wish, "just read the bible yourself bro" has been a cancer for America and for the west. I have met prots that are into "soul winning" and let me tell you, nothing is further away from converting me. I am no brainiac but if someone tells me all you need is the Bible and your own mind, you might get a lot of things wrong. They were mostly people turned inward in their interpretation they made themselves. As I have said I felt very, very uncomfortable among them because the church I visited were a bunch of weirdos at the very best. I realize this is not all prots. I may have misjudged by a bias. But boy…going from their "service" I was really looking forward to the discipline and liturgy back at catholic church, even though I did not really like it back then. The reason why I went to prots was because I was searching which way to go. Sola scriptura was a dead end for me as well as their "liturgy" or whatever it was supposed to be.
Julian Carter
This is an interesting thread, too bad some angry prots joined in and derailed it by their nonsense.
William Reyes
I do accept the primacy of the Pope. I think it's terrible both that the present Pope isn't very good and also that we Orthodox are out of sync with the Papacy, as our fundamental conservatism might have prevented things like the Vatican councils and ultramontanism in general, while the Pope might have guided the united yet conservative church on an excellent social mission.
What I can't accept though are the fruits and vision behind the Gregorian reforms: of the Dictatus papae and an ultramontanism that has caused so much harm to the present Catholic church. If you had more conciliarity and we had the tempered leadership of the Pope, I think all would have been better.
Jose Moore
I would expand. My background: Raised Catholic, outside of 'Murrica. I did not think about it this way tbh. Although OP's post mirrors some of my own feelings. Few years back I searched which way to go. In my area there is a national Orthodox church. So this is not "murrica exile" territory. However the church I was going to was a bit vacant, since there are few orthos in my area. No issue with that. But: The masses were irregular, the priest seemed very indifferent to me being present there….well not all of them, to be fair. Some of them made a good way towards me even though they knew I am RC who is interested. I do not see much attempts of them converting people. Perhaps the church in my area struggles to survive…no problem then. But man, I was most of time treated as a foreigner. This is not Russian Orthodox church and yet…in my area one priest asked whether I am Russian, the other was looking in dismay that I am not Russian, when the "parish" discussed something I knew half of it since my Russian is pretty broken, cannot understand everything. I said to myself: well, I am not a foreigner, this is a country I was born to and an Orthodox church is basically treating me as a foreign element. What the winnie pooh? that was my reaction. I still visit even though I did not convert to Orthodoxy - for other reasons than what I wrote here. I like it there, I like the people too. But man, it really is turned inwards, disregarding the issues that are here, not doing anything to convert people…even those that go there and are eager to convert. I did not convert because I accept teachings of RCC and I do not believe in "primus inter pares".
Luke Rodriguez
Even though your efforts are necessarily doomed to failure?
Dominic Rivera
Is there anyone who can offer a catholic rebuttal to this?
Chase Carter
It's sola scriptura nonsense. The bible is not the beginning and the end of Christian belief and teaching.
Jeremiah Lewis
But scripture is the word of God, as well as an historical record of the early Church, right? So why would they leave out something as important as declaring the bishop of Rome to have primacy?
Luis Watson
Have you told this to your priest?
Joshua Nelson
tired of this meme. Bible was compiled centuries later, what did the church do until then? Only then was decided what would be scripture. All "authority" comes from the Holy Spirit leading the pope when he speaks "ex cathedra". I do not think pope is to be viewed as a "supreme leader" but rhather as a Shepherd and Overseer of the church. He does have the authority. But not all authority is towards detriment, not all authority is bad. His "supremacy" "primacy" "authority" or "power" are a great great responsibility before God for where he leads the church. Sure if one wants to smear papacy he will always claim things as "supremacy for powers sake" etc. What about responsibility that comes from the task?
Andrew Jones
Also notice how a thread made to discuss Orthodoxy and Catholicism turned into sola scriptura derail. This happens often however.
Jayden Allen
It's the highest authority
Matthew Nguyen
Mere assertion, not argument
Henry Wright
I know that the Bible wasn't compiled until well after Jesus' time, but it still contains Church history. Why would they leave out something as important as the Bishop of Rome being the highest authority of God's Church on earth?
Christian Ortiz
Every atheist sees the Church exactly the way you do, as coercion. Change couldn't even come from the radical policies of an elite, but of genuine repentance of the people to Christ. There is no salvation from this world, to say otherwise it's called millenarianism and it's heresy. You're delusional.
I don't have the standard deviation or any other info but I'd say these statistics are about the same. This is no definite proof but it does show a correlation between practicing catholics, of which going to mass each sunday is the utter minimum, and opposition to same-sex marriage. I guess the 5% regular mass attenders in favor for same-sex marriage are all the Jesuit priests. :^)
Oliver Allen
woah there.
Carter Jackson
I am going to shamelessly bring this thread back from the grave. This post resonated with me deeply. I've been spending the past couple years trying to discern where God is calling me, I spent about a year going to mass and I have spent the last several months going to an Orthodox parish. Intellectually I find myself in agreement with the Orthodox on things like the essence/energy distinction (versus divine simplicity) and the concept of ekonomia, but as OP said, Orthodoxy really is a passive spiritual refuge. I don't think that you need to try to "change the world" to be saved, but I fail to see how God would ever hold it against someone for trying. Catholicism is in a sorry state at the moment, certainly, but it is such an active moral force in the world and I feel called to a life of action rather than contemplation.
I see Catholics on Zig Forums who say that the Church cannot change its teaching, that the Pope cannot fall into heresy, that the Church's modernism is an error that will fall away. I want to believe that. It's hard when I see a Church that seems to have its day to day operations run predominantly by boomer feminists, when there are a dozen lay persons distributing communion into people's grubby mitts, altar girls, Pope Francis perpetually shilling for Western peoples to continue being displaced by 3rd world savages, celebrating the anniversary of heretics, Sodomites who are never defrocked… How can this be the bride of Christ? Orthodoxy doesn't have to deal with any of this, there are some internal schisms and the EP is arguably too ecumenical. That's it.
Please understand that I'm not trying to disparage Catholics, I admire your faithfulness in the face of opposition. At this time believe I probably will continue on the path into Orthodoxy but I want to hear from /ourpapists/.
Orthodoxy isn't nearly as strong in the west as Catholicism. I don't think it could really change the world if it tried with all it's might. But given time, I think it could become as strong a cultural and moral force here as it is in places like Russia.
